LoL, the truth will always out. John
'Real Life' MPG of 07 Camry Hybrid
- Thread starter Jonny Z
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I doubt he was racing you. I'm just learning the Prius driving routine, and actually, it's a lot of fun. How you climb and descend hills is critical (but obviously, one should mesh safely with other traffic first...). Battery state of charge (SOC) changes quickly. Regeneration occurs NOT only with braking, but also with coasting. As you lift off the gas, the ICE (gas engine) shuts off immediately, you have a moment of no drive/no resistance, and then you start dragging against the electric motor, which has instantly shifted from drive mode into generator mode. Without touching the brakes (which will cause even more regeneration), you're now sending what otherwise would be wasted energy back into the HV traction battery. The good hybrid driver will try to set his glide speed so that his traction battery approaches full SOC right around the bottom of the hill. If he reaches full SOC before the bottom, he'll feather the gas to try to find that little point of min drag right between now-pointless regen, and energy spending acceleration. And the Prius is so low-drag that he might just catch up with you while doing so.
In commenting on the benefit of getting energy from regen braking with a hybrid over a conventional drivetrain, what's done with the potential energy if the battery bank is already fully charged? During such a case, I would think that the only conversion for such potential energy would become thermal energy just as it does in a conventional braking system. A benefit none-the-less when conditions allow.
CK:
Unless you live in very hilly terrain, you will rarely see true full SOC in a Toyota hybrid. The ECU (a much bigger brain than in "normal" cars) works very hard to keep the charge around the mid range of the battery's capacity. This results in overall greater efficiency, and greatly prolongs the life of the HV battery, as compared to if it were regularly taken between full and empty SOC.
The biggest elevation thing I see regularly is the massive Crescent City Connection bridge pair that crosses the Mississippi in New Orleans. The road deck peaks at just under 200 ft up, six lanes for each bridge (one each way, of course). Coming down the back side, I get pretty charged up, but not quite to the "top bar" on the display. To address your question, I'm not yet sure whether the car transitions to 100% friction braking, or whether it dumps the excess "juice" into, for example, a dummy load. I'll find out and pass it along.
Unless you live in very hilly terrain, you will rarely see true full SOC in a Toyota hybrid. The ECU (a much bigger brain than in "normal" cars) works very hard to keep the charge around the mid range of the battery's capacity. This results in overall greater efficiency, and greatly prolongs the life of the HV battery, as compared to if it were regularly taken between full and empty SOC.
The biggest elevation thing I see regularly is the massive Crescent City Connection bridge pair that crosses the Mississippi in New Orleans. The road deck peaks at just under 200 ft up, six lanes for each bridge (one each way, of course). Coming down the back side, I get pretty charged up, but not quite to the "top bar" on the display. To address your question, I'm not yet sure whether the car transitions to 100% friction braking, or whether it dumps the excess "juice" into, for example, a dummy load. I'll find out and pass it along.
I just calculated the average ( 10 tankfulls, May- July)mileage of my wife's '03 Camry SE 4 cyl with the 5 spd manual trans. She averaged 28 mpg in mixed suburban/rush hour, rural exburban driving conditions. On the long haul trip, it will post 32mpg easy.
Considering her lead foot, she just got ANOTHER speeding ticket
I love these unconditional prognostications. Whether or not they save any one person money or not is entirely dependent upon their situations. Since mine's used, I "missed out" on the $3150 tax credit, but I paid a few dollars over $20k for my 04 with 15k miles. I'm now getting 45 mpg in city driving around New Orleans, and on my first 200 mile hwy run, I got 46.5. I was getting 13-17 city before, and was lucky to see above 23 mpg hwy. Saving? You bet I am. How's your mileage looking?
And let's look at the batteries. Toyota initially predicted 150k miles life for them. The high mileage Prii have not, however, been seeing battery failures. In fact, Toyota has scaled back its battery stocking program, as there has yet to be any demand for them. My expectation is that based upon where things are going, if and when my battery does need replacement, that should cost me roughly a year's worth of fuel savings. If it takes 4-6 years to get there, obviously, I'll be way ahead at that point, compared to where I would have been had I kept a conventional vehicle. And the more of these cars that hit the streets, the more demand there will be for remanufactured batteries.
This week, I drove 145 miles commuting and doing errands around New Orleans (less than usual for me). My car has consumed about 3.3 gallons of regular doing so, my old car would have required roughly 10 gallons. How much gas would your car have burned????
The biggest problem with me regarding hybrid is that as the car (and the battery) gets older, the battery loses its capacity. Yes, true, they told us that that won't happen. But hybrid cars use NIMH batteries, which have been pretty much abandoned by laoptop and only had something like 1 or 2 year of life expectancy. I don't believe the car makers can make them way way better, however advanced technology they have. So that's say 5 years down the road, and the battery can only hold 40% of its original capacity, what kind of MPG can we get? And if that happens, good luck in warranty claim, the car is still fully functional (!!), at least to the automakers.
To me, hybrid is pretty much a joke. It doesn't save you money, unless you really really drive a lot. It may not save the earth either. I seldom see people consider the pollution human being create when making and recycling the battery.
To me, hybrid is pretty much a joke. It doesn't save you money, unless you really really drive a lot. It may not save the earth either. I seldom see people consider the pollution human being create when making and recycling the battery.
Kestas
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What frosts me is that the government gives a tax break to those who buy a hybrid, but nothing to the people who buy cars that get even better gas mileage (i.e., Corolla, Rabbit, etc.)
I thought that the tax issue for the heavy GVW vehicles was an accelerated depreciation for business use. I have a contractor friend who cash purchased 4 SuperDuty diesels from a small town dealer just because of the tax incentive. I wish that I was the salesman that day!
EK Polk,
Congrats on your Prius purchase. I don't think there is much merit in comparing the Prius to other "hybrids", be they from Toyota or others. The sophistication of the Prius driveline is clearly in a league of its own.
Is the HVAC electric so you get cool air without running the gas engine?
Congrats on your Prius purchase. I don't think there is much merit in comparing the Prius to other "hybrids", be they from Toyota or others. The sophistication of the Prius driveline is clearly in a league of its own.
Is the HVAC electric so you get cool air without running the gas engine?
That is true, but all trucks (SUVs and pickups) are also exempt from the gas guzzler tax that is placed on cars that get less than 22.5 mpg (combined mileage). The tax starts at $1000, and goes up to almost $8000. So there are two tax benefits associated with these larger vehicles. Seems awful silly for the federal government to promote, via favorable taxation, the use of the most gas thirsty vehicles.
See http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#guzzler
Why? The government gets more in fuel taxes from the most gas thirsty vehicles. The government obviously levies taxes on income generated from
the business use of the vehicle. I'm not a policy maker, but there could be, and probably is, a rational basis for this section 179 treatment of business class vehicles.
The gas guzzler tax, however, is strictly punitive to the economic class that buys gas guzzlers. I have had to pay it twice - it has never affected my buying decisions - just left me feeling hosed, and not by a gas pump.
If the pols punished all the people buying very popular pickup trucks and SUV's, like they hose the very few people buying gas guzzler cars, they probably would not be reelected. That's why there is no gas guzzler tax on trucks and SUV's, IMHO.
edit: around here, you get to pay state sales tax on the gas guzzler tax. It's a nuisance amount, but it always frosts my flakes to be taxed on a tax.
We have a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 4x4 for our main family car. This is a smooth and comfortable vehicle that gets 18-20 mpg in town, and I can tease up to 25mpg on highway trips by simply setting the cruise control at the speed limit. It is capable of effortlessly towing our camping trailer and can handle some pretty rugged terrain during hunting season. It is nimble in parking lots and my wife likes the elevated driving position. The roof rack can carry Christmas trees, lumber for the honey-do projects, and oversized sporting equipment. Camrys, Accords and the like are nice vehicles but they would require me to own a second vehicle to make up for the lack of capability, it would of course need to be a truck or SUV.
I think my experience is fairly typical and that is why SUVs remain popular even with rising fuel costs.
It makes more sense to buy a used diesel VW or something instead of an insane expensive hybrid anything.
Have you seen our parallel hybrid thread? A brand new Prius, $23,033, is hardly "insane expensive" when there are new I-4 Camrys that top $29k, and V-6 Camrys that can be dressed up well into the 30s.
BTW, I bought a used 04 Prius hybrid (the current generation), loaded, only 15k miles for about $3k less than a new stripper. The hybrid benefit pattern is far better for my driving pattern. Exactly where's the "insane expensive" in that???
My son has an '06 Prius purchased about 3 months ago. His average mileage to date is 51 mpg (he lives in Seattle). He has installed the EV mod, which allows full battery operation and is stock on all but US cars. The car is great fun to drive. He paid about $24k for it very nicely optioned.
Toyota is running at least one test mule with lithium oxide batteries and is averaging 113 mpg!
I did own a 1982 VW diesel Jetta that regularly turned in 40 to 50 mpg and did 220 k mi with original brakes and clutch! It smelled like a toxic waste dump, idle gave everyone a vibro-massage, and top speed was about 72 mph. For the oil people, I used Delo 400 15W40, and got $2500 when I sold it.
Toyota is running at least one test mule with lithium oxide batteries and is averaging 113 mpg!
I did own a 1982 VW diesel Jetta that regularly turned in 40 to 50 mpg and did 220 k mi with original brakes and clutch! It smelled like a toxic waste dump, idle gave everyone a vibro-massage, and top speed was about 72 mph. For the oil people, I used Delo 400 15W40, and got $2500 when I sold it.
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