READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

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I think what fpracha is getting at is that manuals still occasionally reference matching grade to ambient or usage patterns. Of course, that doesn't stop them from actually listing only one grade as acceptable.
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As an aside, how come it's a bad thing when North American cars recommend one grade, yet it's okay when the Germans do it?
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
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As an aside, how come it's a bad thing when North American cars recommend one grade, yet it's okay when the Germans do it?


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Having monitored oil temperatures under a pretty wide range of ambient temperatures and operating conditions, I totally see the logic in recommending a single grade of oil. I realize that doesn't fit the "CAFE is ruining my engine" narrative, but modern engines operate in pretty narrow range of temperatures when running--regardless of conditions, and there's plenty of headroom in the mfg's recommendations.
 
Here is a rhetorical question for you: If viscosity helps wear protection so much (30% increase in engine longevity by going up from 5W-20 to 5W-30), why only use 5W-30, which has almost the same viscosity as 5W-20? Why not use 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W-40, or even 20W-50 or higher? Wouldn't that increase the engine longevity by a factor of ten or so and the engine would last perhaps ten million miles or more?

Viscosity difference between 5W-30 and 5W-20 is very small, especially if you compare a synthetic 5W-20 with a conventional 5W-30, the latter of which will permanently shear to 5W-20 viscosity anyway. (This is due to a large amount of viscosity-index-improver polymers that make up the conventional 5W-30 multigrade oil getting permanently damaged after about 1,000 miles or even less.) So, this whole 5W-20 vs. 5W-30 is almost a moot issue to begin with.

This said, there are two basic lubrication regimes in the engine: (1) Boundary lubrication (= metal-to-metal contact). This happens at valvetrain and part of the piston rings and cylinders. Higher viscosity helps very little here and antiwear additives do the most wear protection. (2) Hydrodynamic lubrication. This happens at the bearings and most of the piston rings and cylinders. Higher viscosity provides a larger minimum oil-film thickness. If your oil is particularly dirty, this could result in less wear as the dirt particles will be smaller than the oil film and can't rub onto sliding metal parts as much. This is especially crucial in diesel engines, as they generate abrasive soot particles. Also, in extreme conditions such as heavy load and low RPM combined, a larger minimum oil-film thickness could prevent the sliding metal parts from touching each other in the hydrodynamic-lubrication regime and going into the boundary-lubrication (metal-to-metal contact) regime.

On top of these considerations, type and amount of viscosity-index improvers is important -- more viscosity-index improvers could be actually better for wear protection, as they do things the oil base stock cannot do. Type of detergents being used and other various additives being used also could make a huge difference in wear protection.

Conclusion:

It's a false statement that 5W-30 provides significantly more wear protection than 5W-20. Assuming everything else is the same other than the viscosity (similar base stock and same additive package), 5W-30 may offer slightly more wear protection in certain conditions and in certain engines. However, that's about it. Note that I said assuming everything else is the same (same-quality oils).

You're much better off with finding a top-quality oil with proven wear protection -- preferably a top-quality synthetic -- than simply assuming that a cheap, conventional 5W-30 will greatly extend your engine life. In fact, I would bet that any engine would last longer with a top-quality synthetic 5W-20 than with a cheap conventional 5W-30. If an engine specifies 5W-20, buy a high-quality synthetic 0W-20 or 5W-20 (0W-20 preferred in most cases) if you really care about engine longevity. I would use a 5W-30 in such an engine only if it's using a lot of oil so that it doesn't make sense to put more expensive oil in it (feed the oil-hungry engine with the cheapest 5W-30 you can find) and also oil consumption will be a little less with 5W-30 than with 5W-20 due to slightly higher viscosity of 5W-30.
 
That's why I'm not terribly worried about running something somewhat different in my G. I ran plenty of 5w-30 PYB, and 5w-40 isn't going to hurt anything. Both are sensible all year grades for many vehicles, as is 5w-20 or 0w-20 for many vehicles. The old Audi specified everything from 5w-20 to 20w-50 (plus some monogrades). Something like a 0w-40 or a 5w-40 was a better choice than flipping between 20w-50 and 5w-20 or something similarly strange by season.
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Agree 100% to Gokhan and Garak both logic sound reasoning and practical !

Originally Posted By: JOD
Having monitored oil temperatures under a pretty wide range of ambient temperatures and operating conditions, I totally see the logic in recommending a single grade of oil. I realize that doesn't fit the "CAFE is ruining my engine" narrative, but modern engines operate in pretty narrow range of temperatures when running--regardless of conditions, and there's plenty of headroom in the mfg's recommendations.

Yes agree. Naturally there has to be "plenty of headroom in the mfg's recommendations" in order to accommodate different driving styles(more important in terms of wear control) and the ambient temperatures.
The question is : are you considering "loading conditions" on the engine and the external contamination severity (how dusty or smoky or humid the environment is where the vehicle is being driven) before reaching you conclusion here ?
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I would use a 5W-30 in such an engine only if it's using a lot of oil so that it doesn't make sense to put more expensive oil in it (feed the oil-hungry engine with the cheapest 5W-30 you can find) and also oil consumption will be a little less with 5W-30 than with 5W-20 due to slightly higher viscosity of 5W-30.

0w-20 oils or rather 5w-20 oils will have similar consumption in a worn out engine unless some major towing etc. is involved. So it may not be always true that 5w-30 will sufficiently reduce oil consumption over a 5w-20. This assuming we are not comparing a 5w-20 on the thinner-side with a 5w-30 on the thicker side of allowed specs. I feel this is a little more complex situation than most people think !
 
I understand that other people would like to see a temperature chart in a manual, with other viscosity choices. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing that, either. But, I think we give too much credit to CAFE. Having only one recommended grade isn't terribly uncommon even outside of North America.

The U.S. (and Canada by extension) has to deal with CAFE. Europe has to deal with faster driving and ridiculous prices on oil (where extended drains necessitate a robust spec). And, I'm sure manufacturers worldwide don't want us doing something idiotic, like running a new Porsche on the Ring with 0w-20, or me starting the G right now in the -30 C with a straight 40. And, if you give someone "permission" to do something under limited circumstances, they'll push the boundaries.

In the end, people can choose to go out of specifications. I'd suggest doing so very, very carefully and within reason - and for a good reason - but it can be done.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Here is a rhetorical question for you: If viscosity helps wear protection so much (30% increase in engine longevity by going up from 5W-20 to 5W-30), why only use 5W-30, which has almost the same viscosity as 5W-20? Why not use 0W-40, 5W-40, 10W-40, 15W-40, or even 20W-50 or higher?



This is a variation of the "straw man" argument. Its invalid, to say the least. Look at an analogy. Are carrots good for you? YES, they are, in moderation. They are loaded with vitamin A and K. Then, should you eat 100 carrots a day, because "more is better"? NO! If you did you would soon die of Vitamin A poisoning. So, no, I am not going to run a 20-50 in a Honda driving through Minnesota in February.

No rational person would advocate this. To imply this twisted logic to the debate is is wrong and irresponsible.
 
Originally Posted By: Ram01
5w30 will have your engine living longer than a 5w20 the thicker the oil the better once you get into high mileage

Data to support the theory?
 
Where is the data to support the opposite?

There is none. However, we CAN see manufactures spec 5-30 'round the globe for the exact same engines, except in CAFE burdened USA.

Why is this so hard to understand?
 
Sure thing. Guess I better stop using 20-weight in both my Toyotas, eh? Neither of which specified this weight when new BTW.

Gee, I've only gotten to half a million miles with virtually no consumption between OCIs. What was I thinking?

Originally Posted By: Ram01
5w30 will have your engine living longer than a 5w20 the thicker the oil the better once you get into high mileage
 
What an arrogant post. Show me the data that supports the destruction that 20-weight causes. So what if the rest of the world uses heavier oil? And also prove to me that it is driven solely by CAFE.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Where is the data to support the opposite?

There is none. However, we CAN see manufactures spec 5-30 'round the globe for the exact same engines, except in CAFE burdened USA.

Why is this so hard to understand?
 
In 1997 Ford increased the displacement of the 3.8L V6 to 4.2L. They installed said engine in the F150 1997-2008. In 1997 the 4.2L engine was spec'd 5W30 oil. In those 11 years of production the tolerances and clearances had NEVER changed. But, they did spec 5W20 oil in the latter years of production, and back spec'd 5W20 oil to 1997.
I am currently using a 5W30 in my 4.2L V6 and the sky has not fallen yet.
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Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Where is the data to support the opposite?

There is none. However, we CAN see manufactures spec 5-30 'round the globe for the exact same engines, except in CAFE burdened USA.

Why is this so hard to understand?


Because 5w-20 isn't available in the parts of the world where 5w-30 or 10w-30 is OK to use? Or if it is, its much more expensive than 10w-30.

My Mazda 3 (2013) recommends 0w-20, or 5w-20 or 0/5w-30 if 0w-20 is not available. Yes they have fuel standards to meet here. Yes you can go heavier per any recommendation in your OM and conditions/weather.
 
What I find hard to understand is why we are still having this discussion. 5W-20 has been out for more than a decade and used in millions of vehicles since then. Please PLEASE will someone show me the vast wasteland of vehicles littering the landscape with engines ruined due to using 5W-20?

Before the "thicker is better" brigade overheats and blows a gasket, I am talking about using 5W-20 in situations where it's appropriate, not in a Dodge SRT that specs 5W-40.
 
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
What I find hard to understand is why we are still having this discussion. 5W-20 has been out for more than a decade and used in millions of vehicles since then. Please PLEASE will someone show me the vast wasteland of vehicles littering the landscape with engines ruined due to using 5W-20?

Before the "thicker is better" brigade overheats and blows a gasket, I am talking about using 5W-20 in situations where it's appropriate, not in a Dodge SRT that specs 5W-40.


+2 There is no evidence of less engine life. In fact, the evidence points the other way, that as we have progressed decade after decade with thinner and thinner oils, engine life has increased. A simple Google search will show that vehicles last longer now with thinner oils than with the thicker oils of yesteryear. Of course, this is also due to engineering feats but, nonetheless, our vehicles are lasting longer with thinner oils.
 
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