READ PLEASE! 5w20 vs 5w30 engine life? opinions ?

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Kuato
IMO this indicates that the Toyota engineers understand a higher weight may very well protect better in those cases. (Yes, "high speeds" and "extreme load" are subject to interpretation)

The high speeds or extreme load they are referring to equates to increased oil temps and a 30 grade would essentially have the same film thickness as the 20 grade at the elevated oil temp.
Sure if a person sustains oil temps of 280f every time they hit the highway then yeah going up a grade may improve wear however if the oil film strength is adequate at those temps then going thicker creating a thicker oil film improves nothing.

+1. very well said and thanks!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Ah I see your Grand is gone Kuato.

Our 2012 KIA manual pushes 5w20 like a commissioned salesman, but immediately defaults to 5w30 or 10w30 for hot weather or towing. So 5w20 just ain't all that IMO.



Almost like the old days where they gave you a chart, and choices based on how the vehicle is being used. It's good to see a slow drift for some car makes away from one size fits all. Maybe it doesn't for some vehicles, something prompted the change.

 

[blackman777]

I have seen engine temps climb when going over mountains. It made me glad I put-in 5w-30 instead of the manual recommendation.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: blackman777
QUOTE:"The bad news is the about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years) caused by the thinner oil."

Well bummer.
Quoted from who.


Am I the only person who read the first post? The answer to your question lies there.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: blackman777
I have seen engine temps climb when going over mountains. It made me glad I put-in 5w-30 instead of the manual recommendation.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: blackman777
QUOTE:"The bad news is the about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years) caused by the thinner oil." Well bummer.
Quoted from who.

Am I the only person who read the first post? The answer to your question lies there.

Oops...in that case, someone go tell my FX4 that it is about 53,000 miles past its "deathclock". What a load of bovine scatology...

 

[crazyoildude]

i say this all the time if your manual says use 5w20 do it if it says use 5w30 use it. if we rebuild your engine and we tell you to use what your oil cap says than do it because if you dont and have an unlikely oil related problem with your motor and we have to do the job again it could cost you. We have a nissan in the shop as we speak we did the engine about a year ago and the engine is smoking. the customer put on 19,000 miles and i saw he was using some cheap sa oil. Although i told him i could charge him for the engine repair it is not worth the bad reputation. Hopefully the engine can be saved because i wont charge him again he needs his car and has nothing or anyone in this world. Im pretty sure its our mistake anyway.

 

[crazyoildude]

ford has been 5w20 for years and their engines run well almost always

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: blackman777
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: blackman777
QUOTE:"The bad news is the about 30% reduction in engine life (from 100,000 miles or 10 years to 70,000 miles or 7 years) caused by the thinner oil." Well bummer.
Quoted from who.
Am I the only person who read the first post? The answer to your question lies there.

Oops...in that case, someone go tell my FX4 that it is about 53,000 miles past its "deathclock". What a load of bovine scatology...

+1. This so-called quote is mostly hear say unless backed up by hard data = evidence from a technically qualified expert in this field.

As for engine life, apparently Honda introduced the 0w-20 grade for the Honda Odyssey from 1999 onwards and 14 years have passed... It true than can any one produce factual data aka evidence that all these engines have failed by now (caused by oil-related wear)?

For all the Ford engines (dating back 8-10 years) using the 0w/5W-20 grade can anyone produce the data on how many of those ford engines have failed due to wear over time/miles ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
For all the Ford engines (dating back 8-10 years) using the 0w/5W-20 grade can anyone produce the data on how many of those ford engines have failed due to wear over time/miles ?


Can you produce any data at all that they have lasted longer than they would have on a 30 ???

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: fpracha
For all the Ford engines (dating back 8-10 years) using the 0w/5W-20 grade can anyone produce the data on how many of those ford engines have failed due to wear over time/miles ?
Can you produce any data at all that they have lasted longer than they would have on a 30 ???

I assume this is a reference to your infamous "strawman" argument? Both sides are irrelevant in the face of two things--5W-20 is what is specified by the manufacturers and no one can state what the engine life should/could be on either viscosity since no one knows and neither side will concede.

Both viscosities will have the engine last longer than the owner is willing to keep the vehicle in which it is installed or outlast the chassis in which it is installed. Pointless to continue arguing either side, but I am certain that we will continue to do so. Why? Because modern oils allow engines to last far longer than ever before AND we are at that stage that you suggested a few days ago--we are out of problems to solve regarding motor oil so we look for other things to argue/discuss.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Both viscosities will have the engine last longer than the owner is willing to keep the vehicle in which it is installed or outlast the chassis in which it is installed. Pointless to continue arguing either side, but I am certain that we will continue to do so. Why? Because modern oils allow engines to last far longer than ever before AND we are at that stage that you suggested a few days ago--we are out of problems to solve regarding motor oil so we look for other things to argue/discuss.


Cheers to ^

 

[KCJeep]

Most Fords, Hondas and Toyotas seem to do really well on 20 grades from what I've seen in the UOA section. Nissan on the other hand spec'd a 5w30 for most engines until at least 2012...and the UOA's I've seen for Hyundai/KIA engines on 20's have not really impressed me either. GM definitely hung onto 5w30's for much longer than most domestic competition. There is not a "one size fits all" IMO.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is not a "one size fits all" IMO.


There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.

 

[Gannet167]

Just to inject some scientific objectiveness into this squabble of conjecture and superstition. I bought a 2008 Mazda 3, 82,000km. Service records suggest it was well maintained at the dealer with regular 8k km OCI of Mazda 5w-20 oil. I took it to 9,100 km OCI and the UOA shows "low wear metals". This OCI was over the summer when temps hit 35c/95f regularly and was 80% city driving. Blackstone suggested taking it to a 12k km OCI since the oil and engine are in such good shape after 9k. It's the first car I've owned that calls for 20, I was a little unsure but now I'm sold. As it's -25c now, it's probably even more appropriate than a w-30.

30% more wear? Not at all. Not only was this "thin" oil, it was also driven hard and in somewhat stressful conditions. The result? "low wear".....

BUT, this engine was designed for 5w-20. I believe it has a very high pressure oil system, running around 90 psi I'm told.

There's a lot of discussion and presupposition about thickness, no one has mentioned how pressure factors in. I'm sure the oil journals and bearing clearances are all designed around 90psi of oil. An older or worn engine, designed for w-30 with a lower pressure system might not fare as well on 20, but the proof is in the UOA.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: Gannet167
Just to inject some scientific objectiveness into this squabble of conjecture and superstition. I bought a 2008 Mazda 3, 82,000km. Service records suggest it was well maintained at the dealer with regular 8k km OCI of Mazda 5w-20 oil. I took it to 9,100 km OCI and the UOA shows "low wear metals". This OCI was over the summer when temps hit 35c/95f regularly and was 80% city driving. Blackstone suggested taking it to a 12k km OCI since the oil and engine are in such good shape after 9k. It's the first car I've owned that calls for 20, I was a little unsure but now I'm sold. As it's -25c now, it's probably even more appropriate than a w-30.

30% more wear? Not at all. Not only was this "thin" oil, it was also driven hard and in somewhat stressful conditions. The result? "low wear".....

Thank you for chipping in with this critical real world proof

To add to this, using a 30 grade in an engine more suited to a 20 grade will probably result in reaching the oil's condemnation point (its viscosity overshooting the maximum limit set by the OEM) much EARLIER IN THE OCI duration than it should with a 20 grade.

Originally Posted By: Gannet167
BUT, this engine was designed for 5w-20. I believe it has a very high pressure oil system, running around 90 psi I'm told.

There's a lot of discussion and presupposition about thickness, no one has mentioned how pressure factors in. I'm sure the oil journals and bearing clearances are all designed around 90psi of oil. An older or worn engine, designed for w-30 with a lower pressure system might not fare as well on 20, but the proof is in the UOA.

Absolutely true "it depends on how well maintained and pressurized is the oil flow".

However there is certainly no evidence to date to backup the conjecture that a 20 grade will harm the engine.

wrong oil grade in any application can and most likely will damage any engine sooner than expected , whether one uses a 30 grade in an engine calling for a 40 grade or using 20 grade in a 30 grade application. The reverse is also true and using a thicker oil in an engine that calls for a thinner oil in will cause premature and excessive startup wear, even if it may not result in an early engine failure, it is equally undesirable!

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is not a "one size fits all" IMO.


There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.


Agreed, I use 5W-20 in my mom's Grand Marquis as she putters around rarely getting oil to full operating temp... Both of mine get 5W-30 as I will beat either like a red headed stepchild not giving it a second thought...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
There is not a "one size fits all" IMO.


There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.


Agreed, I use 5W-20 in my mom's Grand Marquis as she putters around rarely getting oil to full operating temp... Both of mine get 5W-30 as I will beat either like a red headed stepchild not giving it a second thought...


My point exactly. Short hops never reaches operating temps, match the oil to the user pattern. Beating the snot out of it, especially during the hot summer, match the oil to the user pattern. One size fits all, it rarely does IMO.

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.
Agreed.
Whoever said that an oil should not be matched to the how an engine is being used ?
No body, not even the owners manuals!

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.
Agreed.
Whoever said that an oil should not be matched to the how an engine is being used ?
No body, not even the owners manuals!


Ahem...

Guess you haven't seen many of today's owners manuals, since CAFE most recommend ONE oil only......

 

[fpracha]

Yes if it does not mention more than one grade possible to use it is a little misleading unless the particular model and engine cannot be driven safely under heavier loads in any way practical!

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
There isn't. I still believe that oil viscosity should be matched to how an engine is being used. A car towing a max load across the mountains in 100°F temps might need a "thicker" oil than the same car cruising the highway at 60 mph on 70°F day. Matching the oil to the conditions the vehicle is being used under makes a lot more sense to me than one grade fits all, under any and all conditions that many owners manuals state.
Agreed.
Whoever said that an oil should not be matched to the how an engine is being used ?
No body, not even the owners manuals!


My Jeep Liberty states one oil grade and only one, with no other options. 5W20 or else. I even called them to ask if I could use 0W20 and was told NO it would void my warranty if I had an oil related issue. I'm glad to see some of the newer owners manuals are now showing 5W30 as acceptable, even if the fill cap states 5W20.