Questions for the “only oils with approvals!” crowd- API vs good oil engineering

[bhvrdr]

Recourse between whom?

Recourse can be between any perceived aggrieved party and the identified respondent. In civil court that would be any (claimant) and the oil company would be the respondent. In a case where there was evidence to suggest a company intentionally sold a product that didnt meet certification and it resulted in criminal damages (an airplane crashes as an example) you could have both civil recourse (families of deceased or those injured themselves) and criminal recourse (in which case you'd have the plaintiff such as the United States of America vs defendant).

...But we're talking consumer motor oils so most likely you'd be talking about civil litigation between a consumer and the oil company (an engine fails) or perhaps a vehicle manufacturer and the oil company (multiple engines fail).

Thats the reason many manufacturer certifications exist. Right in the documents of engine oil certification you'll see legal language such as "...Responsibility for compliance for such legal requirements falls to the engine oil maker, importer, or distributor."

There's actually quite a bit to unwrap in that question but lets stop there if thats ok...

Is proof of cert helpful? Of course, but it's not required for a consumer to obtain compensation. Also we're talking about certifications/approvals rather than marketing claims.

I hope i didnt insinuate anywhere the only way one can successfully obtain compensation is if the oil is certified. I would agree thats not the case. The certifications certainly make it easier. The certifications are quality claims. Sometimes performance related, sometimes chemistry related, etc. All are claims of the qualities of the identified part (oil in this case). The certifications are in writing and are legally binding. Thats why they exist. To ensure certain qualities of a product and to provide oversight.

And yes, we agree an oil that is not certified is not bound by any certification requirements. For those oils it comes down to marketing claims vs actual performance (ie, "this oil is guaranteed to perform for 20k miles"). Those are much harder to deal with regarding recourse. What does perform mean? What does last mean? What does "offers outstanding protection" mean? What does "provides the best cleaning on the market?" mean? etc.



And i tend to agree with the other poster, all this is probably moot. How often is any individual consumer seeking recourse from any oil company for any engine failure? And how often is any automotive manufacturer using a boutique oil company to supply their cars where they would have to seek recourse? Probably a statistically zero sum.

 

[TiGeo]

Still in all this discussion....trust is the key. HPL earned my and many here's trust and that handles the lack of formal approvals/certs. They understand this game and are producing quality oils that are blended for a positive outcome by folks that are trusted in industry - that shouldn't be in question at this point. Sure, they (or anyone) can "pull one over you" and change things and not tell you but why and who are folks here to think they know more than the folks at HPL about how to blend oil? Some here make it sound like it's random Amazon chemistry set blending going on here hahahah...."screw it, just toss that base stock with that additive pack and send it out". This isn't a fly-by-night oil company. I'd use their products in any of our fleet. That also includes Amsoil or Redline.

 

[Pablo]

Still in all this discussion....trust is the key. HPL earned my and many here's trust and that handles the lack of formal approvals/certs. They understand this game and are producing quality oils that are blended for a positive outcome by folks that are trusted in industry - that shouldn't be in question at this point. Sure, they (or anyone) can "pull one over you" and change things and not tell you but why and who are folks here to think they know more than the folks at HPL about how to blend oil? Some here make it sound like it's random Amazon chemistry set blending going on here hahahah...."screw it, just toss that base stock with that additive pack and send it out". This isn't a fly-by-night oil company. I'd use their products in any of our fleet. That also includes Amsoil or Redline.

This. I've been with Amsoil almost 25 years now, and just trust the motor oil listed applications. Never once have their written recommendations steered me or customers wrong. They know the importance. I cannot even imagine an application recommendation causing grenading or premature wear.

I will state I PERSONALLY cheese the system - I mean to the (extreme ) point of beyond their recommendation by running 0W-30 in 0W-20 applications. This is my personal decision.

 

[TiGeo]

This. I've been with Amsoil almost 25 years now, and just trust the motor oil listed applications. Never once have their written recommendations steered me or customers wrong. They know the importance. I cannot even imagine an application recommendation causing grenading or premature wear.

I will state I PERSONALLY cheese the system - I mean to the (extreme ) point of beyond their recommendation by running 0W-30 in 0W-20 applications. This is my personal decision.

Again...a level of trust has been estabilished. It's also the source of "we also recommend this oil for" on bottles....not to mislead, but to show that the work has been done to provide oil that works in those applications in lieu of formal approvals/certs.

 

[MSCH]

Still in all this discussion....trust is the key. HPL earned my and many here's trust and that handles the lack of formal approvals/certs.

trust is the key... I trust Walmart Supertech Synthetic or Costco alternative in all my gasoline powered vehicles.
been using it for almost 20 years now.
once a year oil changes or every 10,000 miles WCF. .. and this oil has the certification.
.

 

[MSCH]

A very valid point. We're not trying to keep planes in the air here. The great majority of folks will be FULLY warranty compliant, spend less money, and have less difficulty obtaining even the least expensive certified oil....and have no lubrication related issues.

Those that absolutely must go out of their way to obtain and spend more on a boutique oil for their daily driver will likely see no real life benefit not likely any real life detriment (unless doing something like putting a high calcium oil in a small displacement tgdi engine or some other misapplication).

you know how they say common sense aint so common..

that is how this works...

if I can pay 10 dollar for something that will end up in the trash or I can pay 30 dollars for something that is 1% better and will still end up in the trash, why would I choose to pay 30?

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

you know how they say common sense aint so common..

that is how this works...

if I can pay 10 dollar for something that will end up in the trash or I can pay 30 dollars for something that is 1% better and will still end up in the trash, why would I choose to pay 30?

Now give us a real life application that fits your example. I personally can’t think of anything that’s only 1% better yet 3x the cost, not even when talking AA batteries.

 

[MSCH]

Now give us a real life application that fits your example. I personally can’t think of anything that’s only 1% better yet 3x the cost, not even when talking AA batteries.

it is my claim, you disprove it or not...
it matters not to me whether you believe me or are a cult member..

 

[wemay]

I don't think there's a "good" or "bad" guy here. Neither the Bitoger wanting approved oils or HPL offering a niche product for those who don't care. The concern, in my estimation, comes into play [hypothetically] when a warranty claim is made and the dealership/manufacturer denies based on type of oil used. Theoretically, this can occur but the instances are so few and far between (if at all) that it boarders on the ridiculousness of oil thickness threads.

If you want an approved oil - use it. If you want to use a boutique - use it. But both sides should refrain for besmirching each other's choice.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

it is my claim, you disprove it or not...
it matters not to me whether you believe me or are a cult member..

Again, the claim is the maker’s to prove, not of the recipient of said claim. It’s the prosecuting attorney’s job to prove the criminal did what he claims, not the alleged criminal’s duty to prove his innocence.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I don't think there's a "good" or "bad" guy here. Neither the Bitoger wanting approved oils or HPL offering a niche product for those who don't care. The concern, in my estimation, comes into play [hypothetically] when a warranty claim is made and the dealership/manufacturer denies based on type of oil used. Theoretically, this can occur but the instances are so few and far between (if at all) that it boarders on the ridiculousness of oil thickness threads.

If you want an approved oil - use it. If you want to use a boutique - use it. But both sides should refrain for besmirching each other's choice.

again, one of the questions is, why are the API “standards” so low that they allow varnish and sludge accumulation even when changing oil at the OEM’s OLM?

 

[TiGeo]

trust is the key... I trust Walmart Supertech Synthetic or Costco alternative in all my gasoline powered vehicles.
been using it for almost 20 years now.
once a year oil changes or every 10,000 miles WCF. .. and this oil has the certification.
.

Cool. I trust Supertech in 2/6 of my vehicles as well - in those applications it's perfect. I wouldn't trust it to beat the crap out of my car on the track certs or not but if you do, go for it.

 

[MSCH]

Cool. I trust Supertech in 2/6 of my vehicles as well - in those applications it's perfect. I wouldn't trust it to beat the crap out of my car on the track with however certs or not.

we aint talking about racing, are we... you need to move up a few race classes and have yourself a 1000 person race team like F1 if you really want to spend money... otherwise you are just a pretender buying 15 dollar a quart custom lubes.

 

[TiGeo]

we aint talking about racing, are we... you need to move up a few race classes and have yourself a 1000 person race team like F1 if you really want to spend money... otherwise you are just a pretender buying 15 dollar a quart custom lubes.

I choose to run a high quality product in my car to handle 280 deg oil temps for a few hours on a weekend for a car I've spent significant money on over my ownership and hope it continues delivering smiles for years to come, I don't believe I've said I'm racing...pretender? In teh scope of the money I spend to do this, oil is my lowest cost vs. rotor rings, brake pads, and tires. My son is driving the Focus with Supertech in it at autocross b/c....it's pretty easy on it...if he begins to do track time, it will get HPL as well. You do you dude.

Edit...@>2x stock power.

 

[pbm]

I would imagine there are plenty of pretty clean engines run solely on API synthetic oils as well. One example isn't a trend.

Agreed....I seriously doubt that a person running Mobil1 0w20 in a (insert any American or Japanese car maker here that specs 0w20...VW excluded due to their specs) would have a dirty engine running a reasonable (7.5k) OCI. Since that’s about the maximum OCI I’d do anyway. No need for a boutique oil for me.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

again, one of the questions is, why are the API “standards” so low that they allow varnish and sludge accumulation even when changing oil at the OEM’s OLM?

Cost? Perhaps because the "varnish" and "sludge" is insignificant and has no significant impact upon the service life of the vehicle. IOW, other things will send the vehicle to the junkyard.

 

[bhvrdr]

Cost? Perhaps because the "varnish" and "sludge" is insignificant and has no significant impact upon the service life of the vehicle. IOW, other things will send the vehicle to the junkyard.

It's also painting with a very broad stroke to say that API oils allow varnish to build up.

Is that all API oils?

Do all non API oils avoid varnish build up in all engines?

Of course not to either question.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Cost? Perhaps because the "varnish" and "sludge" is insignificant and has no significant impact upon the service life of the vehicle. IOW, other things will send the vehicle to the junkyard.

If API only applied in the salt belt states, maybe. Southern and western states generally don’t send lots of vehicles to the junkyard based on rust.

If all maintenance is performed, “I want new” or a wreck should really be all a vehicle is retired for, at less than 300k. Interior condition and new creature comforts are likely reasons as well. But I get your point, even though IMO that should be a VERY weak excuse to leave engine internals that dirty. It’s got to have an efficiency impact that costs real money to the owner.

 

[OVERKILL]

Cost? Perhaps because the "varnish" and "sludge" is insignificant and has no significant impact upon the service life of the vehicle. IOW, other things will send the vehicle to the junkyard.

That's exactly it. The standard isn't to ensure that the engine is pristine when the car goes to the wreckers because the transmission failed, it's to ensure that it stays reasonably clean enough that this isn't what takes it there.

Now, there have of course been uniquely challenging applications where that hasn't been the case. The Toyota sludgers and the ones with the inadequately sized piston oil return holes, the Saturn engines, with the same problem, the Honda VCM engines, I'm sure there are a few more. Some applications are uniquely challenging and if the oil is just meeting the API standards, it's not going to be up for the challenge.

@Trav was able to determine that M1 0W-40 held up far better, keeping things clean, in the Honda VCM engines for example. Is that because the oil was API SN? Of course not. Is it due to LL-01, 229.5, 502 00/504 00, A40....etc? That's far more likely.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

That's exactly it. The standard isn't to ensure that the engine is pristine when the car goes to the wreckers because the transmission failed, it's to ensure that it stays reasonably clean enough that this isn't what takes it there.

Now, there have of course been uniquely challenging applications where that hasn't been the case. The Toyota sludgers and the ones with the inadequately sized piston oil return holes, the Saturn engines, with the same problem, the Honda VCM engines, I'm sure there are a few more. Some applications are uniquely challenging and if the oil is just meeting the API standards, it's not going to be up for the challenge.

@Trav was able to determine that M1 0W-40 held up far better, keeping things clean, in the Honda VCM engines for example. Is that because the oil was API SN? Of course not. Is it due to LL-01, 229.5, 502 00/504 00, A40....etc? That's far more likely.

According to our mutual friend, 502.00 is the most robust Euro spec and why it’s in their premier offering…