Questions for the “only oils with approvals!” crowd- API vs good oil engineering

[OVERKILL]

No, I was only me. I do remember NHHEMI though. He and I were grotesquely outnumbered in the RP debate, I mean, RP hatefest.

The presence, or lack thereof of "owners of a company" posting here should not have any significant impact on an oils quality perception, unless wholesale bias is clearly at work here. There are reams of technical data always available on most every oil, RP included, that would preclude condemning an oil. Far more than was necessary to NOT call RP a "junk oil" that "makes my 1986 Yugo run rough" and the like.

No, people wanted to blindly hate RP, and they did. With a vengeance. I guess RP should have been a sponsor, to get the LOVE that comes with it.

OK, just wondering.

Yeah, RP had a hard go on here, but so has AMSOIL and so did HPL at first until the owner came on here and started answering people's questions. Should that be necessary? Perhaps not, but when you are making claims, or having people make claims on your behalf, about product performance, like RP was doing (and like AMSOIL does) you are going to get a lot of "Pffffffft" from folks on here. It recently happened with "Tri-Ax", who did have somebody come on here, but their style of participation was not helpful with the brand's reception.

And yes, the purple dye shtick wasn't well received, seen as a bit of a gimmick, but then so was the 4-ball wear test that AMSOIL used for years.

I'm not defending what may have been excessive hostility toward RP. I know I harboured some healthy scepticism myself, but I will say that I had the same concerns about HPL when they first started getting mentioned on here and David answered all of my questions without hesitation. That meant a lot, and changed my position on their products.

 

[celicaxx]

I think the bigger point is how stressed both engines are and how well designed they are.

The Trax is a direct injected 1.4L turbo 4 with 110hp per liter, and the Charger V6 is only 85hp per liter and only has port injection. I think both of these things would make it a lot easier on oil than the Trax. That and anecdotally we have a Pentastar that's gone 626k miles on Mobil 1 and Valvoline syn with 8-10K intervals, that looked super clean inside. I don't think any DI Turbo Chevy 1.4 motor is going to make it there. I don't think there's any Trax that has ever hit 600K miles so far.

For those planning to keep their 3.6L Jeeps for years: Story of 626k miles on Pentastar and still going!

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34672/check-out-how-surprisingly-durable-this-chrysler-pentastar-v6-is-after-626000-miles Check Out How Surprisingly Durable This Chrysler Pentastar V6 Is After 626,000 Miles See how important maintenance really is. When you think of reliable engines, something...

www.jlwranglerforums.com

I don't see under the valve cover but his engine looks very clean with a fairly normal and mundane maintenance schedule with normal normie oil.

I think the poster is trying to argue it's only the oil's fault for both engines, but I think the oil choices might have been irrelevant, and it's just one engine sucks and the other is at least decent.

To toot my own horn, I have a 17 year old car that's run conventional oil at 5-6K OCIs it's whole life and looks better than the Trax.

2006 Ford Five Hundred under valve cover pics, 186k miles conventional oil

So I'm doing the valve cover gaskets, plugs, and coils, on my mom's Ford Five Hundred again (Chinese coils failed in back, didn't do valve cover gaskets last time and they were leaking a bit.) Anyway, here's how things look in front at least. So that's it. There's yellow patina...

bobistheoilguy.com

I could say it's all me and how great I am, but I think it's simply an understressed motor with no DI, no turbo, and only making 66hp per liter that's driven relatively gently.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

I think the poster is trying to argue it's only the oil's fault for both engines, but I think the oil choices might have been irrelevant, and it's just one engine sucks and the other is at least decent.

Nope, wasn’t solely arguing that it’s the oil’s fault, but rather as I’ve hit on a few times in this thread… if standards are supposed to be “good” and oils that don’t meet the standard (in this case, HPL doesn’t meet the standard because it’s an overachiever) are “bad”, why do the objective measures not end up in the corner of the oils with standards?

Another thing I’m actually really surprised that no one picked up on is the Trax “recommends” Dexos 1 oils, which are supposedly an even higher standard than the basic API requirements(!) and it appears the OP has followed the manufacturer’s recommendations as all the 0w20s from the Big 3 carry Dexos licenses. So if anything, GM saying basic API wasn’t good enough, and putting additional, ever-newer performance requirements and pay-to-play licensing schemes (when ‘16 Trax was new it was d1G1, now d1G3) and OP followed GM’s OLM… and still gets left with what we saw.

If we’re giving both the API and GM a taste of cash from every quart, those certifications should be a guarantee of sorts to the purchaser that if they’re following the OM that they won’t end up like the Trax engine.

Congrats on your engine being cleaner than the Trax, but in a couple ways you’re not playing the same game… I don’t remember offhand what the Five Hundred service intervals were, but if you’re changing the oil at 5k with a 10k OLM, you’re being more wasteful and costing more, changing the oil 3 times in 20k versus just once for 10k OCIs.

Specific output may play a role in oil performance, but the main things I think affect “most” people’s experience is: engine temp, oil temp, and PCV design. There are good and bad pics from nearly every engine family, and from nearly every oil manufacturer.

Too bad the only decade-old engines that have been run on HPL 15k+ OCIs since birth are not visible to the board. I’m pretty sure it would change even more minds on the AN & ester track, which includes M1FS 0w40 as an honorable mention at the very least.

 

[MSCH]

Scoobie Dooby Do, basically liars figure and figures lie... this whole thread amounted to trolling.. I'm surprised the Admins let it go this far.

 

[Overfill]

Most friends and family I talk to about motors believe they should own, in part, the control to reverse varnish and coke deposits by how long they use their oil. They say it makes sense to them that if it says "detergent" then it ought behave to similar expectations of other detergents in their life. They don't care about the differentiation between sludge and varnish and technical definitions of detergency and solvency. I can correct people for their ignorance, or I can argue for better standards that meet market expectations of performance. For now, my family and friends buy oil with this property (happens to be HPL.) Everyone else can trip over dollars to save pennies.

 

[MSCH]

Most friends and family I talk to about motors believe they should own, in part, the control to reverse varnish and coke deposits by how long they use their oil. They say it makes sense to them that if it says "detergent" then it ought behave to similar expectations of other detergents in their life. They don't care about the differentiation between sludge and varnish and technical definitions of detergency and solvency. I can correct people for their ignorance, or I can argue for better standards that meet market expectations of performance. For now, my family and friends buy oil with this property (happens to be HPL.) Everyone else can trip over dollars to save pennies.

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

 

[bhvrdr]

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

Tell that to general motors, ford motor company. and bavarain motor works or the founders of Detroit, the motor city, or the dude who came up with the enginecycle....I mean motorcycle....or merian Webster...

A machine that produces motion or power for doing work. A gasoline motor. Electric motors.

 

[TiGeo]

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

Troll level 11 unlocked. You're hitting bangers today or as my teenagers would say "bruh".

 

[Pablo]

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

Rocket motor or rocket engine?

Even in the industry interchangeable.

 

[MSCH]

Rocket motor or rocket engine?

Even in the industry interchangeable.

Troll level 11 unlocked. You're hitting bangers today or as my teenagers would say "bruh".

not really. BITOG is the resident home of nomenclature and minutia wingnuts as well as compulsive oil changers...

needing to put oil in your motor sounds fine at the truck stop
but telling the acronym snobs on Bitog about the best oil to use in your motor swims upstream.

 

[TiGeo]

not really. BITOG is the resident home of nomenclature and minutia wingnuts as well as compulsive oil changers...

needing to put oil in your motor sounds fine at the truck stop
but telling the acronym snobs on Bitog about the best oil to use in your motor swims upstream.

 

[Overfill]

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

guess I've been putting my PCMO in the wrong thing for years!

 

[mr_boring]

Meh - I got called out for calling my F150 engine a motor a while back so I conformed (just here and one other forum I doof around in) just to save myself the hassle. It's kind of like how technically a brake is an accelerator.

I don't cotton much to conforming but laws knows any other day 25 people would have "corrected" him had it been in a different setting (thread, post, etc...) and he'd said 'motor'

Consistency people. Or 10 lashes with the webernetwhip.


I vote we all start calling it a powerplant. No space between power and plant. RISE all ye rebels!

What was we talking about again? Oh yeah, how this is not an HPL thread.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Scoobie Dooby Do, basically liars figure and figures lie... this whole thread amounted to trolling.. I'm surprised the Admins let it go this far.

How is asking valid questions trolling? Please answer what the point of standards are if you can follow all the instructions from the manufacturer and API to a “T” and end up with an engine that belongs in the junkyard by the time you hit 100k?

If you’re good with that, cool, but I’m not.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

if you want people to admire your knowledge on the subject, a good place to start would knowing when to use the word motor or the word engine. You lost me at motor.

we had that discussion a few weeks back. You lose, just like I did. So we’re more alike than you would want to admit in public. Carry on…

 

[MSCH]

How is asking valid questions trolling? Please answer what the point of standards are if you can follow all the instructions from the manufacturer and API to a “T” and end up with an engine that belongs in the junkyard by the time you hit 100k?

If you’re good with that, cool, but I’m not.

the question that started this thread was borderline trolling.. it was like posting this meme.. and expecting crickets...

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

the question that started this thread was borderline trolling.. it was like posting this meme.. and expecting crickets... View attachment 184261

Every product has its place… some oils’ place is at the pinnacle; others belong in the recycling tank before they’re ever used.

 

[bbhero]

And here is the perfect example of why certifications and standards exist.

In many applications we simply can't afford for people to "...trust" or "highly doubt" if a quality standard is or is not met.


Certifications exist to remove any such doubt.

As I said in applications where "doubt" and "trust" must be replace by scientific certainty such as the aviation industry these standards and certifications are required.

While I agree with your thought process on this.


Take HPL, Redline or Amsoil and put them all through all the SAME exact tests for API and Dexos… The tests results maximums and minimums test’s results are very easily found.

Afton has a handbook that outlined all tests and results to meet those specs.

HPL, Amsoil or Redline does those tests..

Then you have that “scientific “ answer.

It’s really just that simple.

However because those oils have certain characteristics… Then those oils may not be able to get that magical “seal” of approval.

 

[c502cid]

Wait, this is Bitog. Changing oil early is "cheap insurance".

I have a 2015 Trax, not DI like my daughters 2022. I've run it on any Dexos 5w-30 since new, sometimes..gasp..even mixing brands on the same oil change. First 50,000 or so miles I ran it on the OLM which came on anywhere between 6000-7500 miles. After that I started thinking about the turbo more and started changing at 4-5000 miles. It currently has 107,000 miles. I had the valve cover off at around 80,000 and while it didn't look new inside, it had no where near the varnish the Trax in question did. But even if it did, I would be disappointed, but it I wouldn't think the engine was about to come apart.

I remember my Dad's 302's after 100,000 miles of regular oil changes (whatever that was in the late 60' early 70's) and it was caked in sludge. Heck even one of my first cars, a 76 Toyota Corolla had sludge from the oils of the day.

I'm an oil junkie like many here. I'd run the HPL but I just can't do extended oil changes to justify the cost. I can't. No reason other than I like to change my oil. I do trust the HPL is outstanding motor oil, but it doesn't add up for me. Now if I bought a brand new high end car, I might do it, but again, I just get the shakes even thinking about doing the extended OCI thing. I do love seeing the results of others doing it though, it fascinates me.

My daughters first new car, the 2022 Trax with the DI, I have her doing OCI of 4500 miles. The dealer is telling her I'm the dumb one.
The Trax, like less expensive API certified oil has it's place in the world. Throwaway car to some, but good value to me for what it is.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Wait, this is Bitog. Changing oil early is "cheap insurance".

I have a 2015 Trax, not DI like my daughters 2022. I've run it on any Dexos 5w-30 since new, sometimes..gasp..even mixing brands on the same oil change. First 50,000 or so miles I ran it on the OLM which came on anywhere between 6000-7500 miles. After that I started thinking about the turbo more and started changing at 4-5000 miles. It currently has 107,000 miles. I had the valve cover off at around 80,000 and while it didn't look new inside, it had no where near the varnish the Trax in question did. But even if it did, I would be disappointed, but it I wouldn't think the engine was about to come apart.

I remember my Dad's 302's after 100,000 miles of regular oil changes (whatever that was in the late 60' early 70's) and it was caked in sludge. Heck even one of my first cars, a 76 Toyota Corolla had sludge from the oils of the day.

I'm an oil junkie like many here. I'd run the HPL but I just can't do extended oil changes to justify the cost. I can't. No reason other than I like to change my oil. I do trust the HPL is outstanding motor oil, but it doesn't add up for me. Now if I bought a brand new high end car, I might do it, but again, I just get the shakes even thinking about doing the extended OCI thing. I do love seeing the results of others doing it though, it fascinates me.

My daughters first new car, the 2022 Trax with the DI, I have her doing OCI of 4500 miles. The dealer is telling her I'm the dumb one.
The Trax, like less expensive API certified oil has it's place in the world. Throwaway car to some, but good value to me for what it is.

Nobody’s saying one “has to” do extended OCIs with HPL, but there’s 2 main crowds I see where HPL has ultimate appeal: those who want to do minimum maintenance (by extending OCIs) while still protecting the engine (or whatever the application is) as well or better than anything available on the shelf; and those who “think green” and are extending OCIs to minimize the use of resources.

Think of @Direct_Rejection ’s experience with HPL, for example, which meets both criteria above: he’s up to 30k OCIs and likely going farther soon. Even now, compared to 5k OCIs he’s using 1/6th the time, oil, filters, and even less money and still has zero concerns about the longevity of his engine. Wwillson is essentially in the same boat… maximum protection and performance, minimum maintenance and environmental impact.

Now, even as the HPL “fanboy” as TiGeo has named me, I’m not trying to force anyone to use HPL, because everyone has reasons, and I can respect your choice. It’s the naysayers who’ve never used it and come up with all kinds of excuses to put it down because “reasons” that I think are ludicrous. Either or get off the pot, as many of our senior members likely say…