Quality of workmanship today

[Benito]

I have a 10 year old house and am the second owner. As time goes by, I find more and more issues. Some of these are from the original builder installation, some from the second owner.

But most are down to workmanship errors and laziness. These are some of the most galling:

1) Ceiling fan fell out in the middle of the night. Upon inspection it was installed with very short screws and so it was just asking to eventually fall out. That night I had to check two others that were above beds to make sure they were safe.

2) Water softener. After being unhappy with it's performance despite changing the end user settings, I found some time to track down installation instructions as well as work through some knowledgeable resources on how exactly you should set up a water softener. As a result, I discovered multiple install errors. Firstly, an installer setting on the programmer had been set so incorrectly, the softener was regenerating twice as often as required. Secondly, two parts that varied the flow and injection rates during different parts of the regeneration cycle were sized incorrectly and against explicit instructions by the manufacturer. They didn't even match what was printed on the controller unit. This was leading to water and salt wastage and poor regeneration of the resin. Only 1 of 3 parts that were interchangeable depending on the details of the particular install was actually the correct one.

I spent around $15 on parts to fix the issue and now have a perfectly operating water softener.

3) Fence. A part of our fence in a slightly more windy area fell down. Upon inspection I discovered that on one side of the fallen section, the top rail was not even connected to the post.

4) Fridge. This was under extended warranty and was freezing up at the bottom. 2 visits and a co-pay later, the technicians had performed a fix or two for known problems with that fridge. But the problem was still there. Some internet sleuthing led me to discover another known problem with the fridge and I went and fixed it myself.

5) The hardware for the garage side door came unattached from the door. Some screws had been inserted into softer filler material. Better placement of the hardware would have avoided this issue. Again, I fixed this myself.

I've been trained in none of the above, but the people who performed the work presumably have some training, do their jobs day in and day out, and get paid reasonably well for their work.

But on so many occasions, they are doing a poor job.

It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands. But when I read about the experiences of people in other countries with those brands, you hear nothing but praise.

Is it just me this is happening to? Or are my expectations too high?

 

[eljefino]

It's hard when school guidance counselors take kids who are bored in class and pulling poor grades, then saying, you, yes you, should learn a trade. The other 90% go to college, then whine about how being saddled with debt isn't getting you anywhere.

We as a society don't value and respect the trades, so this is what we get. There are some good craftsmen out there, and they have to work through the stigma of the sheisters and dumbledores around themselves.

 

[OneEyeJack]

The process of starting at the bottom in the trades and working your way up does not go over too well any more. Some do an excellent job of the process of learning the ropes and other do nothing at all. On top of that people that are looking for a bargain will find it because someone out there will always do that kind of bargain work.

I had a sewage pump replaced and found out the the warning light was on the same circuit as the pump. So when the pump tripped the breaker the warning light could not have worked. The pump repair guy that pointed it out had gone through the apprentice/journeyman program and had a complete understanding of the wiring and how everything worked. He showed me how the original wiring was not to code and why. It was only dumb luck that I discovered the problem before sewage backed up into the house but now everything is okay, finally.

I am happy to pay the price for work well done but sometimes a bargain at the time is too expensive down the road.

If sewage had backed up into the house it would have been a real problem and far more expensive than doing the job correctly at the start.

 

[zach1900]

Just look at our infrastructure.

 

[Rick in PA]

I believe in large part, it's the system, not the workers. There's a lot of pressure to finish this job and get on to the next.

A couple of years ago, I contracted some outside painting work for our house (I guess due to the fact that I'm not too fond of painting). The gentleman who did the work was an older fellow. I got the sense that painting was his profession, and he could do a good job, but he was working for a painting contract outfit. I also got the sense that after a few days working on our house, he was getting pressured to move on to the next job. In the end, I had to re-coat the entire job myself. I blame the contract outfit, not the worker.

 

[demarpaint]

There are many cases where people hire tradesmen based solely on price, and give the work to the lowest bidder, and quality takes the back burner. Usually low bids and lousy work go hand in hand. There are some occasional times where you might get a low price and a good job. There is also the possibility of winning the lottery, or getting struck by lightening.

There are also a lot of unscrupulous contractors who will rip someone off every chance they get. Let the buyer beware.

 

[larryinnewyork]

Quality of workmanship today

YouTube is your friend.
Learn quality work and do it yourself.

 

[Clevy]

I own/operate a construction company. We employ anywhere from 15-35 men at any given time depending on workload.
I've found,with some exceptions but not many,that today's youth is generally useless. They want top wages but don't want yo work. And when they do work they are complaining about cold,hot,wet,too hard blah blah blah.
Currently I've got 25 men. Of those men I have 3 under 30 years of age.
My guys know not to take shortcuts. If they don't follow instruction they can rest assured they are ripping it apart on their own time and building exactly what I instructed or they can leave.
It's that simple. I get work via word of mouth. I spend nothing on advertising. My customers are why I'm employed. They tell their friends and my potential customers will wait months for me to do their work because I will not allow shoddy or crude workmanship.
Today in the trades that sense of being a professional is gone. Most carpenters today are glorified lumberjacks however the market is as such that people are cheap do they take the low bid. Then wonder why the workmanship is brutal.
I price all my work high. I allow my men the time to do the job properly,as per my strict methods. And I always get paid.
My crews are like an assembly line. With a year in the mud to see if new guys have any heart and to build their strength. By the time I move a guy up from labour to assembly I don't have to instruct them at all because they have seen stuff built so many times it becomes second nature to them.
Today everytime watches mike Holmes and thinks they can do what he does and anyone can be a builder. It just isn't so.
I have various branded shirts and hoodies with my logo. My company is called Built 2 Last. The motto printed on everything is as follows:
Home building is NOT a hobby. Hire a professional.
Today everyone wants big bucks to do as little as possible. I weed those types out real fast.
Many custom builders feel they can dictate what they want to pay for any particular job. And it's usually botyom dollar. I refuse to take on those types of jobs. I set my own price. And yep it's not going to be cheap however it will be done properly and in a reasonable amount of time.
It's the people who fo the work so if the quality is poor it's the people doing the work ps fault,not the industry

Originally Posted By: Rick in PA
I believe in large part, it's the system, not the workers. There's a lot of pressure to finish this job and get on to the next.

A couple of years ago, I contracted some outside painting work for our house (I guess due to the fact that I'm not too fond of painting). The gentleman who did the work was an older fellow. I got the sense that painting was his profession, and he could do a good job, but he was working for a painting contract outfit. I also got the sense that after a few days working on our house, he was getting pressured to move on to the next job. In the end, I had to re-coat the entire job myself. I blame the contract outfit, not the worker.


I disagree. Your painter took on the job at the prescribed price. If he was being pushed and the quality was poor that's on him and no one else. He agreed to the price and time allowed.
If he was too slow why didn't he hire a helper to speed things up. In the end it was his hands and his fault.

On my site the buck starts and stops with me. Period. It's my responsibility to insure the product is quality. Only a chimp blames someone else girl their shortcomings. Not on my site.
If it's wrong WE fix it. If the workmanship isn't what I expect as a professional then get the sawzall and sledgehammer and start over from scratch.
I get work because I stand behind my product. And every man on my site knows what's expected of them so they don't even give a seconds thought to trying to cheat. They know I'll catch it and they know they'll be fixing it for free.
I pay my men well and I hold them to a higher standard. They know it.
The problem today is everyone gets a trophy and no one keeps score. So kids never excell because their half hearted effort is "good enough".
Only when you are held accountable will you improve and succeed. In this world of participation awards and everyone's a winner in the end everyone's a loser because no one had to get better because they got their trophy regardless.
Just like shoddy workmanship. If they get paid anyway what the incentive to do the best job you can.

 

[Cujet]

I am fascinated by quality. It can be quality in anything, but it really appeals to me. When I discovered aircraft, particularly, Gulfstream jets, I knew I had found a career! The craftsmanship, the quality, the time spent making things right all speak directly to me.

There are other Americans who share my views. They generally are employed by high tech companies.

Here I am under the G550's BMW-Rolls Royce engine. It's gorgeous!

My house on the other hand, drives me crazy. I had it custom built and the builder took every shortcut imaginable. It was a constant battle to persuade him to make it right. I even had a battle with him because I did not specify how true the walls must be.... He was absolutely OK with walls being 4 inches out of true.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Benito
I have a 10 year old house and am the second owner. As time goes by, I find more and more issues. Some of these are from the original builder installation, some from the second owner.

But most are down to workmanship errors and laziness. These are some of the most galling:

1) Ceiling fan fell out in the middle of the night. Upon inspection it was installed with very short screws and so it was just asking to eventually fall out. That night I had to check two others that were above beds to make sure they were safe.

2) Water softener. After being unhappy with it's performance despite changing the end user settings, I found some time to track down installation instructions as well as work through some knowledgeable resources on how exactly you should set up a water softener. As a result, I discovered multiple install errors. Firstly, an installer setting on the programmer had been set so incorrectly, the softener was regenerating twice as often as required. Secondly, two parts that varied the flow and injection rates during different parts of the regeneration cycle were sized incorrectly and against explicit instructions by the manufacturer. They didn't even match what was printed on the controller unit. This was leading to water and salt wastage and poor regeneration of the resin. Only 1 of 3 parts that were interchangeable depending on the details of the particular install was actually the correct one.

I spent around $15 on parts to fix the issue and now have a perfectly operating water softener.

3) Fence. A part of our fence in a slightly more windy area fell down. Upon inspection I discovered that on one side of the fallen section, the top rail was not even connected to the post.

4) Fridge. This was under extended warranty and was freezing up at the bottom. 2 visits and a co-pay later, the technicians had performed a fix or two for known problems with that fridge. But the problem was still there. Some internet sleuthing led me to discover another known problem with the fridge and I went and fixed it myself.

5) The hardware for the garage side door came unattached from the door. Some screws had been inserted into softer filler material. Better placement of the hardware would have avoided this issue. Again, I fixed this myself.

I've been trained in none of the above, but the people who performed the work presumably have some training, do their jobs day in and day out, and get paid reasonably well for their work.

But on so many occasions, they are doing a poor job.

It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands. But when I read about the experiences of people in other countries with those brands, you hear nothing but praise.

Is it just me this is happening to? Or are my expectations too high?


Your expectations aren't to high. Is it too much to ask the job is done properly. I think not.
When I build a home for sale,or custom home for someone I've gotta give 10 year warranty and the Canadian new home warranty holds 10000 dollars of mine as a bond in case there are issues. I get that 10000 back once the 10 year period is up and no claims were made.
To date I've never had a claim,nor a call back on any home I've built.
If I take a short cut that saves a few hours then I don't spend a couple hundred bucks right now however later on down the road that shortcut can potentially cost me thousands. Not smart is it.
And it's because I AM ACCOUNTABLE. it's my money,name and reputation on the line.
You are only as good as your last job. If it went poorly no one remembers the 100 great ones I did before,they only refer to the poor one now.
So I don't allow a poor one. Even if it costs me more right now to build properly it saves me money later AND I get more work because my customer is happy.
Penny smart and pound foolish.

 

[expat]

I many cases I blame the home owner, they want a price, they want a completion date, and they want it in writing.

Other than that, they have no interest in the job.

If a tradesman were to point out a deficiency or possible problem, They just assume he is just trying to'up' the bill and rip them off.
This results in the worker shorting himself, turning a blind eye or blowing the estimate and hoping to get paid.

Seen it time and again.

Also, there are contractors that ONLY know their trade.
The plumber that knows nothing about framing or the Electrician not knowing the plans of the finishing carpenter.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

The problem today is everyone gets a trophy and no one keeps score. So kids never excell because their half hearted effort is "good enough".
Only when you are held accountable will you improve and succeed. In this world of participation awards and everyone's a winner in the end everyone's a loser because no one had to get better because they got their trophy regardless.
Just like shoddy workmanship. If they get paid anyway what the incentive to do the best job you can.


This is exactly it. Trav and I have discussed this at length in the past. In a society where nobody "loses" and is pushed to try hard; pushed to find their niche and excel in that area, you end up with a whole pile of mediocre workers who put forth mediocre effort and are expected to be "properly compensated" for it, since they "did the work", despite it not being up the standards of the person who contracted it.

It is just another cog in the wheel of wrong in this politically correct culture we continue to adopt. No different from the woman's rights that were shelved last week over a soccer game in the GTA when the Islamic team refused to continue to play the Catholic team because two of the players were female. Instead of the game being forfeited by the intolerant team that was violating the rules, the two girls voluntarily sat out to allow the game to finish. They gave up their rights in the name of somebody's bloody religion. What do you think that teaches them?

No different again than the idiots debating the current Canadian firearms legislature talking about shooting down Mig's in the GTA with rifles!!! (I'm not kidding!) These people are making 140+K a year and their inability to catch a clue is only outdone by their fervour to screw over as many Canadians as possible with their personal agenda which is devoid of anything that resembles sense.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I am fascinated by quality. It can be quality in anything, but it really appeals to me. When I discovered aircraft, particularly, Gulfstream jets, I knew I had found a career! The craftsmanship, the quality, the time spent making things right all speak directly to me.

There are other Americans who share my views. They generally are employed by high tech companies.

Here I am under the G550's BMW-Rolls Royce engine. It's gorgeous!

My house on the other hand, drives me crazy. I had it custom built and the builder took every shortcut imaginable. It was a constant battle to persuade him to make it right. I even had a battle with him because I did not specify how true the walls must be.... He was absolutely OK with walls being 4 inches out of true.



Wow.
4 inches. That's absurd. Framing allows 1/4". So 1/4 out of level/square/plumb is fine because all the finishes like drywall,flooring and so on aren't affected by this tolerance.
And dimensional lumber has a 1/4 tolerance so the lumber isn't perfect.
I even though I'm allowed a 1/4 inch I still insist on perfection. It doesn't take any longer to build it right when starting from scratch. It really doesn't.
Cabinets have no tolerance. Has to be perfect. Millworknand mouldings have to be perfect. Window installs have to be perfect in order for them to operate properly 20 years from now.
Hardwood floors require 1/2 inch for expansion so baseboard usually requires a shoe mould or wider base profile.
Doors have no tolerance. Perfection or don't bother.

Cujet. It's too bad I'm not local. I love building custom homes. They usually have some very neat custom stuff going on which is what I live for.
I love building fireplace surrounds. If it's a gas unit and painted I use mdf and custom make each panel and custom make my own mouldings. That's really fun however it's also very complicated but it's what separates carpenters from hacks.
I'd would have loved the opportunity to do some of your work. You sound like me in that it's either right or it's wrong. There is no 'good enough".
It saddens me when homeowners get a bad builder. They are paying good money for their work and just want a quality product.
I don't feel sorry for the customer who nickel and dimes. They are too busy trying to save their pennies they don't see the big picture and workmanship suffers.
Do your due diligence and make sure your contract states that no payment will be made if the quality is poor.
If a person doesn't know enough about construction then hire an independent 3rd party to oversee. Especially if it's a large reno or addition. The 1000 you spend for an independent inspector can save you 10 times that.
And forget phone call references. Go out and meet previous customers. See the contractors work in person. The older the job the better because then you really see how the workmanship lasts the test of time.
Typically the home is a persons largest investment. Protect it

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: expat
I many cases I blame the home owner, they want a price, they want a completion date, and they want it in writing.

Other than that, they have no interest in the job.

If a tradesman were to point out a deficiency or possible problem, They just assume he is just trying to'up' the bill and rip them off.
This results in the worker shorting himself, turning a blind eye or blowing the estimate and hoping to get paid.

Seen it time and again.

Also, there are contractors that ONLY know their trade.
The plumber that knows nothing about framing or the Electrician not knowing the plans of the finishing carpenter.



A framer has to know everyone else's trade because we have to build to accomodate them. Your framer is the most important man on site because what he builds everyone else attaches to.
Electricians and finish carpenters jobs rarely cross. Problems tend to be with plumbers and heating/ductwork.
However a good general contractor foresees all issues before they present themselves and fixes it before it becomes a problem.
Framers make the best general contractors because we have to accomodate every trade and build for them so their systems work right.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

The problem today is everyone gets a trophy and no one keeps score. So kids never excell because their half hearted effort is "good enough".
Only when you are held accountable will you improve and succeed. In this world of participation awards and everyone's a winner in the end everyone's a loser because no one had to get better because they got their trophy regardless.
Just like shoddy workmanship. If they get paid anyway what the incentive to do the best job you can.


This is exactly it. Trav and I have discussed this at length in the past. In a society where nobody "loses" and is pushed to try hard; pushed to find their niche and excel in that area, you end up with a whole pile of mediocre workers who put forth mediocre effort and are expected to be "properly compensated" for it, since they "did the work", despite it not being up the standards of the person who contracted it.

It is just another cog in the wheel of wrong in this politically correct culture we continue to adopt. No different from the woman's rights that were shelved last week over a soccer game in the GTA when the Islamic team refused to continue to play the Catholic team because two of the players were female. Instead of the game being forfeited by the intolerant team that was violating the rules, the two girls voluntarily sat out to allow the game to finish. They gave up their rights in the name of somebody's bloody religion. What do you think that teaches them?

No different again than the idiots debating the current Canadian firearms legislature talking about shooting down Mig's in the GTA with rifles!!! (I'm not kidding!) These people are making 140+K a year and their inability to catch a clue is only outdone by their fervour to screw over as many Canadians as possible with their personal agenda which is devoid of anything that resembles sense.



I wish I saw those threads you and Trav discussed this in.

I'm convinced that when we quit keeping score the youth quit trying. Then their parents tell them they did a great job even if they tripped over themselves and scored on themselves. Society is teaching future generations it's ok to fail as long as you tried.
Tell that to Buzz and Neil. Let them know their spaceship was built "good enough" and they team who built the space suits has never had one yet that will hold out water,and has failed most of the testing,but they "think" they'll be alright in space as long as you don't stay outside too long.
Growing up losing was the best thing that happened to me. It made me try harder. Made my will stronger. Made my desire to succeed so strong I could taste it. And when I did succeed after all that effort I was on a high do great I wanted it again.
Failure is fine as long as it inspires one to keep trying. If one fails then just quits trying then they follow that pattern forever.
Losing is important because it teaches us how to win and what it feels like to win. If no one is keeping score,that means no one lost which in the end makes everyone a loser because they know not what it takes to win.
In a society where participation is the focus and we coddle everyone's "feelings" we end up with a bunch of crybabies who take their ball and go home.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy



I wish I saw those threads you and Trav discussed this in.


Primarily private discussions based on threads that were going on at the time

Originally Posted By: Clevy
I'm convinced that when we quit keeping score the youth quit trying. Then their parents tell them they did a great job even if they tripped over themselves and scored on themselves. Society is teaching future generations it's ok to fail as long as you tried.
Tell that to Buzz and Neil. Let them know their spaceship was built "good enough" and they team who built the space suits has never had one yet that will hold out water,and has failed most of the testing,but they "think" they'll be alright in space as long as you don't stay outside too long.
Growing up losing was the best thing that happened to me. It made me try harder. Made my will stronger. Made my desire to succeed so strong I could taste it. And when I did succeed after all that effort I was on a high do great I wanted it again.
Failure is fine as long as it inspires one to keep trying. If one fails then just quits trying then they follow that pattern forever.
Losing is important because it teaches us how to win and what it feels like to win. If no one is keeping score,that means no one lost which in the end makes everyone a loser because they know not what it takes to win.
In a society where participation is the focus and we coddle everyone's "feelings" we end up with a bunch of crybabies who take their ball and go home.


That's just it. I sucked at hockey and my parents didn't sugarcoat it. My dad was rather blunt about the "value" of that participation trophy and I ended up in hockey camp and came back being able to actually provide some value to my team. On the other hand, I was extremely good at swimming and that's where I was encouraged to invest my time. I did very well. Same thing applied to academia where I was pushed to pursue what I was good at. That drive is why I will be getting my ME degree (as recently discussed on here).

I'm bringing my kids up the same way, supporting what they are good at and not rewarding poor performance. The idea that "nice try" is good enough has no place in my household. Discovering your strengths and weaknesses is ultimately what enables you to find the right direction, getting your kids there is an important role for a parent. I don't expect my kids to get straight A's in every subject, there will be things they struggle at and that's fine. But I expect them to try their best and own it when they don't.

 

[Sierra048]

Perfect timing for this topic.

Our home that we just put on the market was built seven years ago. I have never seen such poor workmanship along with the use of very low quality materials. We bought the house after completion and didn't see it under construction. The list of problems are just too many to mention, but I'll give you two of the most recent problematic ones.

First, the drywall was installed in such a poor manner the drywall nails are popping out, creating an unsightly hole with a nail in the middle. Not just one or two. Over the years I've fixed probably 25-30, with more left to be repaired. I can't get to a lot of them because they are so high up the wall, or on the ceiling, I just can't reach them (20' walls with cathedral ceiling). I'm unstable on a ladder so they will be sold with the house as is.

Second, is our seven year old roof. Several years ago we heard a strange sound coming from the roof. We checked and discovered that some shingles had come loose and slid down the roof to the ground. The roof is steeply pitched so we had to hire someone to come and re-attach them. This happened four more times. Each repair cost us between $150-$250. The fifth time it happened, we just decided to replace the roof. It was determined after a competent roofer examined the problem, the shingles had been installed improperly, some with only one roofing nail holding in place.

Clevy, I would gladly pay a premium to get the type of quality you expect from your workforce. Although these problems are not the reason we're moving, as frustrating as they are, I certainly won't miss dealing with these problems, or the unknown ones, I'm sure will rear their ugly head sometime in the future.

 

[sleddriver]

Welcome to the club.....Been there. Done LOTS of that....MYSELF.

I've fixed so many things on my house, car, tools, electronic equipment, sailboats, and even water softener, I've lost count. I wanted to learn how to do it RIGHT, increase my skills at doing it, save some money and (usually) NEVER have to do it again.

My friend described many as "Vidiots": Video-idiots. IOW: Clueless and useless.

I've had neighbors pay me to come over and fix something for them because they're frustrated with high costs and having to do it over. Another friend has paid me $$$$ to fix numerous things in her recently-remodeled townhouse that were just wrong. She tired of being taken advantage of.

Wanting a job done right the first time, is not too high of an expectation in my book. Not at all.

 

[BubbaFL]

Originally Posted By: Benito
It seems the quality of workmanship today in our country is becoming like that in the 3rd world. And when it comes to our vehicles, I've been similarly and consistently let down, even with luxury brands.


My house was built in the early 70's, and has the same issues - door jambs that aren't square, crooked walls, electrical wiring that was obviously done the cheapest, most half-[censored]ed way possible, etc.

I don't think any of these quality issues are new, even though we'd like to think things were different back in the "good old days".

If anything, modern quality control processes and engineered materials result in more consistent quality than was ever possible in the past.

When I was a kid, I remember my grandfather burning a hole in the bathroom wall with his torch while repairing copper pipes. Now, I'll slap a $5 push fitting on it and be done.

The same holds true for vehicles - my late 70's Chrysler land yacht was done - finished - beaten to death - by 100k. Just about anything made in the past ten years should easily make 150k, with 200k+ being a realistic service life, if it is maintained and not abused.

 

[Mr Nice]

Few people have any pride in quality of work. Slap it on and move to next job.

Deny any mistakes and incompetence.