LOL, it is a bit redundant isn't it? I use the term HWH as that is the phrase used in most appraisals and inspections. Usually written as either Gas HWH or Elec HWH.
Pros/Cons- Gas water heater vs Electric WH???
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Originally Posted By: getnpsi
I tried several ways of typing "statistics water heater explosions" and only got mythbusters links where they wreak havoc on purpose. How many heaters actually cause destruction? I understand that one water heater accident is too many...but c'mon all mythbusters links?
They aren't an every day occurence, but every state has it's fair share every year. The point is that when they do explode, it's almost always a Gas "Tank" style HWH that does explode. Tankless systems are much safer whether they be gas or electric. No PRV to get stuck and cause havoc, alone, is enough reason to dump the inneficient tank systems.
I tried several ways of typing "statistics water heater explosions" and only got mythbusters links where they wreak havoc on purpose. How many heaters actually cause destruction? I understand that one water heater accident is too many...but c'mon all mythbusters links?
They aren't an every day occurence, but every state has it's fair share every year. The point is that when they do explode, it's almost always a Gas "Tank" style HWH that does explode. Tankless systems are much safer whether they be gas or electric. No PRV to get stuck and cause havoc, alone, is enough reason to dump the inneficient tank systems.
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Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL, it is a bit redundant isn't it? I use the term HWH as that is the phrase used in most appraisals and inspections. Usually written as either Gas HWH or Elec HWH.
Yes, my dad would definitely try to beat you with a sack of oranges. He works for the military in public works.
LOL, it is a bit redundant isn't it? I use the term HWH as that is the phrase used in most appraisals and inspections. Usually written as either Gas HWH or Elec HWH.
Yes, my dad would definitely try to beat you with a sack of oranges. He works for the military in public works.
Originally Posted By: bigmike
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL, it is a bit redundant isn't it? I use the term HWH as that is the phrase used in most appraisals and inspections. Usually written as either Gas HWH or Elec HWH.
Yes, my dad would definitely try to beat you with a sack of oranges. He works for the military in public works.
Seriously...lol....I thought the military loved vague acronyms. Would he say my use of HWH is fubar? I'll bet WHHWH would drive him even crazier.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
LOL, it is a bit redundant isn't it? I use the term HWH as that is the phrase used in most appraisals and inspections. Usually written as either Gas HWH or Elec HWH.
Yes, my dad would definitely try to beat you with a sack of oranges. He works for the military in public works.
Seriously...lol....I thought the military loved vague acronyms. Would he say my use of HWH is fubar? I'll bet WHHWH would drive him even crazier.
To OP....sorry again. I'll leave this alone.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
They already do. They just tell you to use the wrong type at this time. Building codes protect everyone and have existed for years. The argument isn't whether we should have building codes, their purpose is important. The question is should we have building codes that make sense in light of available technologies. And currently we we don't, not even close.
sorry to go off topic OP.
I'll pull this back onto topic.
I'm using a super efficient 50 gallon Rheem Marathon unit with a plastic tank and an efficiency rating of .94. Who in the government is to tell me that this was a bad decision?
http://www.marathonheaters.com/index.html
There can be significant installation costs to retrofit a tankless water heater into existing construction.
Electric tankless units will require an upgraded electric feed to the water heater (which may then require a 200 amp service, if one isn't already in use).
Gas units will require a larger gas supply line, as well as a new stainless steel flue that is specifically for tankless hot water heaters. The old supply line cannot be reused, it isn't large enough. The old flue cannot be reused, due to the amount of heat that will pass through it.
I installed the super-efficient Rheem Marathon without retrofitting anything. The plumber was in and out in no time, the installation cost was much less than I expected (little more than a service call), and my power bill has dropped noticeably.
You can have these type of nanny state rules. I'll continue to happily choose the option that is BEST for ME.
They already do. They just tell you to use the wrong type at this time. Building codes protect everyone and have existed for years. The argument isn't whether we should have building codes, their purpose is important. The question is should we have building codes that make sense in light of available technologies. And currently we we don't, not even close.
sorry to go off topic OP.
I'll pull this back onto topic.
I'm using a super efficient 50 gallon Rheem Marathon unit with a plastic tank and an efficiency rating of .94. Who in the government is to tell me that this was a bad decision?
http://www.marathonheaters.com/index.html
There can be significant installation costs to retrofit a tankless water heater into existing construction.
Electric tankless units will require an upgraded electric feed to the water heater (which may then require a 200 amp service, if one isn't already in use).
Gas units will require a larger gas supply line, as well as a new stainless steel flue that is specifically for tankless hot water heaters. The old supply line cannot be reused, it isn't large enough. The old flue cannot be reused, due to the amount of heat that will pass through it.
I installed the super-efficient Rheem Marathon without retrofitting anything. The plumber was in and out in no time, the installation cost was much less than I expected (little more than a service call), and my power bill has dropped noticeably.
You can have these type of nanny state rules. I'll continue to happily choose the option that is BEST for ME.
For new construction, as I stated mine was, all of your installation points are moot. And as is often the case, new HE codes like I'm wishing for would only apply to new construction permits pulled after a certain date. Why cloud the code issue with retro fit red herrings?
For a retro fit, other than supply issues, tankless are easier to install. All you need is an outside wall for the larger better units. There is no flue involved as most of them are direct vent.
I really don't understand your objection to bringing our building codes into the 21st century. Especially as the water heater you purchsed would qualify as one of the newer technologies that people should be making the move to. We're argueing the same needed modernizations from different ends. If it was "smart" for you to purchase the HE HWH why is it not smart to write that into a cohesive code that reflects todays technology?
For a retro fit, other than supply issues, tankless are easier to install. All you need is an outside wall for the larger better units. There is no flue involved as most of them are direct vent.
I really don't understand your objection to bringing our building codes into the 21st century. Especially as the water heater you purchsed would qualify as one of the newer technologies that people should be making the move to. We're argueing the same needed modernizations from different ends. If it was "smart" for you to purchase the HE HWH why is it not smart to write that into a cohesive code that reflects todays technology?
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Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
They already do. They just tell you to use the wrong type at this time. Building codes protect everyone and have existed for years. The argument isn't whether we should have building codes, their purpose is important. The question is should we have building codes that make sense in light of available technologies. And currently we we don't, not even close.
sorry to go off topic OP.
I'll pull this back onto topic.
I'm using a super efficient 50 gallon Rheem Marathon unit with a plastic tank and an efficiency rating of .94. Who in the government is to tell me that this was a bad decision?
http://www.marathonheaters.com/index.html
There can be significant installation costs to retrofit a tankless water heater into existing construction.
Electric tankless units will require an upgraded electric feed to the water heater (which may then require a 200 amp service, if one isn't already in use).
Gas units will require a larger gas supply line, as well as a new stainless steel flue that is specifically for tankless hot water heaters. The old supply line cannot be reused, it isn't large enough. The old flue cannot be reused, due to the amount of heat that will pass through it.
I installed the super-efficient Rheem Marathon without retrofitting anything. The plumber was in and out in no time, the installation cost was much less than I expected (little more than a service call), and my power bill has dropped noticeably.
You can have these type of nanny state rules. I'll continue to happily choose the option that is BEST for ME.
Agreed. There is nothing wrong with a conventional water heater. Consumer Reports did a comparison just over a year ago and it was clear that the up front costs might take up to 20 years to pay back with a tankless heater savings.
CR Article
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
They already do. They just tell you to use the wrong type at this time. Building codes protect everyone and have existed for years. The argument isn't whether we should have building codes, their purpose is important. The question is should we have building codes that make sense in light of available technologies. And currently we we don't, not even close.
sorry to go off topic OP.
I'll pull this back onto topic.
I'm using a super efficient 50 gallon Rheem Marathon unit with a plastic tank and an efficiency rating of .94. Who in the government is to tell me that this was a bad decision?
http://www.marathonheaters.com/index.html
There can be significant installation costs to retrofit a tankless water heater into existing construction.
Electric tankless units will require an upgraded electric feed to the water heater (which may then require a 200 amp service, if one isn't already in use).
Gas units will require a larger gas supply line, as well as a new stainless steel flue that is specifically for tankless hot water heaters. The old supply line cannot be reused, it isn't large enough. The old flue cannot be reused, due to the amount of heat that will pass through it.
I installed the super-efficient Rheem Marathon without retrofitting anything. The plumber was in and out in no time, the installation cost was much less than I expected (little more than a service call), and my power bill has dropped noticeably.
You can have these type of nanny state rules. I'll continue to happily choose the option that is BEST for ME.
Agreed. There is nothing wrong with a conventional water heater. Consumer Reports did a comparison just over a year ago and it was clear that the up front costs might take up to 20 years to pay back with a tankless heater savings.
CR Article
Whole lotta "cans" and "mights" in that article. In my real world application the ROI is much shorter and the installation costs are nothing like they say they "might" be.
Once again CR proves their worth to me. Thanks for posting that.
Once again CR proves their worth to me. Thanks for posting that.
Goose,
There is a company on ebay that sells a TON of Titan brand tankless electric water heaters. I can get the link if you can't find it, but he moves probably 20 units per day.
I called him a couple weeks ago, with questions about his product. They have a ton of customers all over the country.
Here is the deal with electric only water heaters in cold weather. I told him I lived in Buffalo. He recommended one of his largest heaters. Thats fine. The unit I was looking at was around $450.
Here is the kicker. The unit that he recommended takes 2 220v lines. Thats 4 breakers in the box for one appliance. If I did that, I would use up all the breakers in my box.
He told me that they couldn't get the water to heat properly in the past with one unit (in the cold weather areas), so they were advising people to run 2 heaters in sequence. But a lot of people were put off by this, so they simply put 2 heaters in 1 unit and called it a day.
The company is located in Miami (Niagara Industries I think its called), and they have been in business since the late 80's doing tankless water heaters.
What you would need is 2 220 lines ran to the appliance, an inline water filter, and 2 siemens line disconnects.
If you have to pay someone to install this (probably an electrician and a plumber), then I could see this 450 dollar heater quickly turning into a $1000+ bill or more.
Great idea, but all electric ANYTHING isn't ready for the north right now.
At my local lowes, I see that some of the big names have gas fired tankless water heaters that require a vent. They start at $700.
Some of the newer houses have "power vented" gas water heaters, they vent out the side of a building. These are $700 as well.
The fact is, that water is not that expensive to heat, and it isn't cost effective to do it this way just yet. A new hotpoint 40 gallon gas water heater is $279 at home depot.
Did you have a chimney expert come and look at your venting situation? If you have an older chimney, sometimes they come out and install a liner in the chimney to seal out the CO, and then they put a hat on the chimney to stop animals from falling in and blocking the chimney.
I have a 2 family house, we have 2 gas water heaters right in my basement. They run directly to the chimney, on a slight upslope, no problem with CO at all. The newer water heaters put out less CO than the old ones did to start with.
There is a company on ebay that sells a TON of Titan brand tankless electric water heaters. I can get the link if you can't find it, but he moves probably 20 units per day.
I called him a couple weeks ago, with questions about his product. They have a ton of customers all over the country.
Here is the deal with electric only water heaters in cold weather. I told him I lived in Buffalo. He recommended one of his largest heaters. Thats fine. The unit I was looking at was around $450.
Here is the kicker. The unit that he recommended takes 2 220v lines. Thats 4 breakers in the box for one appliance. If I did that, I would use up all the breakers in my box.
He told me that they couldn't get the water to heat properly in the past with one unit (in the cold weather areas), so they were advising people to run 2 heaters in sequence. But a lot of people were put off by this, so they simply put 2 heaters in 1 unit and called it a day.
The company is located in Miami (Niagara Industries I think its called), and they have been in business since the late 80's doing tankless water heaters.
What you would need is 2 220 lines ran to the appliance, an inline water filter, and 2 siemens line disconnects.
If you have to pay someone to install this (probably an electrician and a plumber), then I could see this 450 dollar heater quickly turning into a $1000+ bill or more.
Great idea, but all electric ANYTHING isn't ready for the north right now.
At my local lowes, I see that some of the big names have gas fired tankless water heaters that require a vent. They start at $700.
Some of the newer houses have "power vented" gas water heaters, they vent out the side of a building. These are $700 as well.
The fact is, that water is not that expensive to heat, and it isn't cost effective to do it this way just yet. A new hotpoint 40 gallon gas water heater is $279 at home depot.
Did you have a chimney expert come and look at your venting situation? If you have an older chimney, sometimes they come out and install a liner in the chimney to seal out the CO, and then they put a hat on the chimney to stop animals from falling in and blocking the chimney.
I have a 2 family house, we have 2 gas water heaters right in my basement. They run directly to the chimney, on a slight upslope, no problem with CO at all. The newer water heaters put out less CO than the old ones did to start with.
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Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
They really are a great investment and IMO should be the law. Our housing codes in this country are from the 19th Century it seems to me.
This type of a "nanny state" mentality is unwelcome in my home.
You really want the government to tell us what kind of hot water heater to use?
The worst thing is tankless is not near what it is cracked up to be. I did some figures and allowing for interest rates, it is possible at the end of 20 years, I might be behind. The claimed savings exceed what it costs to run my gas HWH and drier in the simmer. I know hype when I see it.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
They really are a great investment and IMO should be the law. Our housing codes in this country are from the 19th Century it seems to me.
This type of a "nanny state" mentality is unwelcome in my home.
You really want the government to tell us what kind of hot water heater to use?
The worst thing is tankless is not near what it is cracked up to be. I did some figures and allowing for interest rates, it is possible at the end of 20 years, I might be behind. The claimed savings exceed what it costs to run my gas HWH and drier in the simmer. I know hype when I see it.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
For new construction, as I stated mine was, all of your installation points are moot.
I'm sorry, I wasn't making those points to you. This thread is NOT about you.
As I stated, I was bringing it back onto topic. The points are valid for the person who made the original post, not you.
For new construction, as I stated mine was, all of your installation points are moot.
I'm sorry, I wasn't making those points to you. This thread is NOT about you.
As I stated, I was bringing it back onto topic. The points are valid for the person who made the original post, not you.
Which is exactly why I responded to you and your point in PM. So as to not further side rail the thread. But then I read it again and you were responding to me. You directly quoted me, and got the "nanny state" dig in again. But enjoy your high horse.
With the installation and location of the HWH that the OP has. A tankless would be easy to install on the outside wall of his house. There is no flue needed at all. The electrical lines can be run in a basement like that for a very reasonable price, the only limiting factor he faces is the size of his main panel, even then a sub panel can be installed.
I'm not trying to make this about me. I'm trying to help the guy rid himself of his apparent constant fear of CO and his HWH causing problems. When I refute your claims that it is cost prohibitive to have a new technology that would alleviate these fears. It is not to make it about me...lol...it's to let him know that your points are moot for new construction and even for some retro fit situations such as his.
The "topic" is, the guy is worried about CO in his house. What is this the fourth thread about it? My solution eliminates the threat for good, with a functional, energy wise solution.
Never should have made the "code" comment, that I admit was off topic and angered some in here apparently.
With the installation and location of the HWH that the OP has. A tankless would be easy to install on the outside wall of his house. There is no flue needed at all. The electrical lines can be run in a basement like that for a very reasonable price, the only limiting factor he faces is the size of his main panel, even then a sub panel can be installed.
I'm not trying to make this about me. I'm trying to help the guy rid himself of his apparent constant fear of CO and his HWH causing problems. When I refute your claims that it is cost prohibitive to have a new technology that would alleviate these fears. It is not to make it about me...lol...it's to let him know that your points are moot for new construction and even for some retro fit situations such as his.
The "topic" is, the guy is worried about CO in his house. What is this the fourth thread about it? My solution eliminates the threat for good, with a functional, energy wise solution.
Never should have made the "code" comment, that I admit was off topic and angered some in here apparently.
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Goose, only 1 of my plumber buddies has an instant heater (because it was almost free after a trade show) and the rest (like me) have regular tank heaters (mostly gas, high efficiency).
The fact that the tradesman around here don't use tankless says a lot. Kinda like asking the mechanic what kind of car he drives.
This post is in reply to Goose's original post
The fact that the tradesman around here don't use tankless says a lot. Kinda like asking the mechanic what kind of car he drives.
This post is in reply to Goose's original post
We were about to get a tankless, but I decided the process of putting one in was invasive in the fact of ducting and installing a UPS to provide power to the electronics during a power failure. Also tankless ones need to be cleaned out occasionally.
I just put in a Rheem/GE .62 efficiency rated unit.
I just put in a Rheem/GE .62 efficiency rated unit.
Thanks for the replies guys
Family of 4 2 teenage boys who take showers in the morning before school..generally not more than 10 minutes long
Wife is currently deployed so just 3 of us right now....
Talked to a plumber tonight who installs Bradford Whites...said he could install a 50 gallon electric for 700 dollars which sounds reasonable to me. Currently at a 40 gallon
He said my electric bill would probably go up maybe 40-50 bucks a month....we have a dishwasher also.
His first reaction was that Sears should come out and make this water heater right but after dealing with the nincompoops they have sent out so far my confidence in them is shattered..I do not feel like rolling the Sears dice again
I explained how the fumes are coming out when it was running and how I was getting some soot on the draft hood and he thought the water heater was just messed up..is it possible to get 2 junk water heaters in a row?
I have 2 open spots in my breaker box..I was told that was all I'd need......I think I am set with an electrician, I think he is just waiting on the word
I know that this might not be a move that a lot of people agree with but for whatever reason this AO Smith/State/Kenmore gas water heater is not functioning correctly and I'm worried sick over my families safety..the electric water heater seems to solve all problems here except it will come with an added hit to the wallet monthly.....
Is it worth peace of mind sleeping soundly? I think so ...but...
Family of 4 2 teenage boys who take showers in the morning before school..generally not more than 10 minutes long
Wife is currently deployed so just 3 of us right now....
Talked to a plumber tonight who installs Bradford Whites...said he could install a 50 gallon electric for 700 dollars which sounds reasonable to me. Currently at a 40 gallon
He said my electric bill would probably go up maybe 40-50 bucks a month....we have a dishwasher also.
His first reaction was that Sears should come out and make this water heater right but after dealing with the nincompoops they have sent out so far my confidence in them is shattered..I do not feel like rolling the Sears dice again
I explained how the fumes are coming out when it was running and how I was getting some soot on the draft hood and he thought the water heater was just messed up..is it possible to get 2 junk water heaters in a row?
I have 2 open spots in my breaker box..I was told that was all I'd need......I think I am set with an electrician, I think he is just waiting on the word
I know that this might not be a move that a lot of people agree with but for whatever reason this AO Smith/State/Kenmore gas water heater is not functioning correctly and I'm worried sick over my families safety..the electric water heater seems to solve all problems here except it will come with an added hit to the wallet monthly.....
Is it worth peace of mind sleeping soundly? I think so ...but...
Bradford White's a good brand. Shoot, most water heaters are. We've got a 50 gallon GE SmartWater which is basically a Home Depot branded Rheem. The 12 year ones are rebranded Rheem Professionals, while the 6 and 9 years are Rheemglas Furys.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Whole lotta "cans" and "mights" in that article. In my real world application the ROI is much shorter and the installation costs are nothing like they say they "might" be.
If you've bought into the hype and are happy with it then more power to you. It still doesn't mean that it's the right solution for everyone.
Whole lotta "cans" and "mights" in that article. In my real world application the ROI is much shorter and the installation costs are nothing like they say they "might" be.
If you've bought into the hype and are happy with it then more power to you. It still doesn't mean that it's the right solution for everyone.
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