PROPOSED STICKY: On "real" vs. "fake" synthetics

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Been working on this for a bit, because I figured it could clear up some confusion. Admins suggested I throw it out to you all for comment, so here it is. What do y'all think?




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There are a lot of arguments about what oil is or isn't "really synthetic." This is because the line between "synthetic" and "not synthetic" has faded.

Here's why:

It's just not a useful distinction any more.

It's important to remember why the line was drawn in the first place: up until 20-30 years ago, the only way to get better performance than a conventional oil was to use base stocks that were entirely synthesized. Hence, "synthetic" = "better."

Things have changed in a big way since then. It's now possible to get that kind of performance from a base stock that is derived from crude oil, but chemically modified. "Derived from crude oil" means conventional, right? But it's chemically modified, like synthetic. So, which is it?

What about a base stock that is like the above, but built up (i.e. synthesized) from methane like a traditional synthetic? The process is like the synthetic, but the product is like the weird conventional/synthetic hybrid. Again, which is it?

It's neither. And both. And it doesn't matter.

The only reason the oil companies still use the word "synthetic" is that people think it means "high-end." Think about that for a second and let the irony sink in. The oil companies use the term "synthetic" -- and charge a lot of money for it -- because people sit around and play armchair quarterbacks about the labeling. In other words, all the Internet dust-ups about what is "real synthetic" or "fake synthetic" are part of the reason the oil companies use those meaningless labels in the first place!

Now, think about WHY you care what's in your oil. The reason is that we want an oil that works well for us. That can be estimated from from its specs and approvals, without requiring you to know even the first thing about what it's made of. If an oil carries Honda HTO-06 approval, you can be totally sure it'll do a great job of controlling high-temp deposits in a turbocharged engine. If it carries Mercedes-Benz 229.5 approval, you know it's a good long-drain oil for high-performance gasoline engines. If it has a high viscosity index with a low HTHS viscosity, it might be great for fuel economy but not very shear-stable. We don't have to know anything about how the base oils were made.

To put it simply: If it performs well, it could be made of canola oil and broken dreams, and that wouldn't matter. If it performs poorly, it could be made of unicorn dust and the blood of kings, and that wouldn't matter.

The QUALITY and PROPERTIES of the base stock are what matter, combined with HOW THEY ARE USED in the total formulation. The terms "synthetic" and "non-synthetic" have nothing to do with quality and properties. They're about how oil is manufactured -- and even on that point, the line between them is blurry.

One could argue that the Group 1 through 5 classification is still worth something because it also encompass a few basic properties like viscosity index (higher group number = higher VI). But even that system doesn't tell you much because you could still have a terrible oil with "higher" base stocks, or a great oil with "lower" base stocks.

And even if any of this DID matter, there's still the fact that you'd never know enough about what different oils are made of! The companies will never divulge their actual formulations. All they ever do is tell you certain aspects that they think will sound best to you, while keeping the important details a secret. And as we all know, the devil is in the details.

Meanwhile, performance data -- in the form of approvals and specs -- are readily available and easy to match with your application.

So, let's stop making a fuss about labeling and focus instead on what really matters:

Can the oil perform, or can it not?

That's what we really care about, and it's what we have some hope of figuring out. Why not cut to the chase?

Of course, it's anyone's right to use the term "synthetic" as a synonym for "high end." That's technically a wrong use of the word, but it ain't the first and it won't be the last. Everyone says shocks or struts when the real word is dampers, and no one expects that to change any time soon. Life's too short to quibble about this stuff anyway.

Just remember that splitting hairs about what is or isn't "truly synthetic" is no different from a playground battle over whose imaginary robot has a bigger laser cannon. You'd never know, anyway -- and even if you could, it wouldn't matter.

It really is that simple.
 
How about instead of "Fake" versus "Real" synthetics, you have a sticky on which ones are confirmed Group III, Group IV, and Group V oil.
 
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
How about instead of "Fake" versus "Real" synthetics, you have a sticky on which ones are confirmed Group III, Group IV, and Group V oil.

LOL!

The gist of d00df00d's post went right over your head, didn't it?
 
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
How about instead of "Fake" versus "Real" synthetics, you have a sticky on which ones are confirmed Group III, Group IV, and Group V oil.


I agree. I don't want no stink-in overcooked crude oil. I want polymers.
 
Yes that sums it up pretty well.
I would include that today the word "synthetic" is largely a "marketing" term to as you say categorize an oil as "high-end" and therefore allow the oil company to charge a premium price.

Of course I would scratch the "high VI ......not very shear stable" example because the highest VI oils are very shear stable while some lower VI oils using cheaper VIIs aren't. Not really relevant to the discussion of what makes the VI of a finished "synthetic" or not.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
How about instead of "Fake" versus "Real" synthetics, you have a sticky on which ones are confirmed Group III, Group IV, and Group V oil.

LOL!

The gist of d00df00d's post went right over your head, didn't it?



That would appear to be the case
 
Excellent article!

I would emphasize that once upon a time, the word "synthetic" meant something in regards to motor oil. But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless. It now has no legal meaning. Any company can call even a basic oil "synthetic" and it won't be challenged in court.

Also might mention that through the years manufacturers have learned that Group IV and V oils aren't always the best. The best oils will have blends of Group II, II+, III, III+, IV, and/or V depending on additives and the desired final properties.
 
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless.

That's another common misconception that d00df00d might want to address - technically there was no lawsuit.
 
Thanks QuattroPete, CATERHAM, and C4Dave.
cheers3.gif


Specifics:


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I would include that today the word "synthetic" is largely a "marketing" term to as you say categorize an oil as "high-end" and therefore allow the oil company to charge a premium price.

Didn't I address this, both implicitly and in the paragraph that begins with "The only reason..."? Or are you saying I should play it up more?


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Of course I would scratch the "high VI ......not very shear stable" example because the highest VI oils are very shear stable while some lower VI oils using cheaper VIIs aren't. Not really relevant to the discussion of what makes the VI of a finished "synthetic" or not.

If the VI is high but HTHS is low, doesn't that imply a heavy dose of VIIs that are not shear stable?

Or are you saying it's confusing either way? If that's the case, fair enough. What would you suggest as another simply explained example of a useful attribute that could be safely gleaned from spec sheet data?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless.

That's another common misconception that d00df00d might want to address - technically there was no lawsuit.


Maybe. I'd prefer to keep the post focused and not get into tangential issues like this, especially because repeating misconceptions in order to shoot them down still involves repeating them. But hey, if the demand is there, I'd be happy to add something.
 
I like it. After all, just about every oil out there is a blend of some sort, even under the strict German labeling laws. Even taking that into consideration, oil companies just start inventing words. Group distinctions are still useful, but yes, "synthetic" is more of a marketing delineation than anything else. Sure, a "synthetic" API oil has certain characteristics (and may meet enhanced specs) that we won't see in a "conventional" API oil. If the oil companies want Group III to be part of the definition of "synthetic," then so be it. Even though I'm a bit of a purist, I do realize that oils continually improve and change. Besides, there's not a lot I can do about it.
wink.gif
 
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.
 
Originally Posted By: sicko
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.

And that would be a good thing. The numerous "real" vs "fake" synthetic threads don't add anything of value to BITOG, and mostly just result in bickering.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I would include that today the word "synthetic" is largely a "marketing" term to as you say categorize an oil as "high-end" and therefore allow the oil company to charge a premium price.

Didn't I address this, both implicitly and in the paragraph that begins with "The only reason..."? Or are you saying I should play it up more?

Yes I know you implied it but I would specifically mention "synthetic" has degraded (since the Mobil vs Castrol law suit back in the 1990s) into just a marketing term. Partly because there is no requirement in NA for the so-called synthetic to even contain 50% actual GP III or higher base oils.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Of course I would scratch the "high VI ......not very shear stable" example because the highest VI oils are very shear stable while some lower VI oils using cheaper VIIs aren't. Not really relevant to the discussion of what makes the VI of a finished "synthetic" or not.

If the VI is high but HTHS is low, doesn't that imply a heavy dose of VIIs that are not shear stable?

Or are you saying it's confusing either way? If that's the case, fair enough. What would you suggest as another simply explained example of a useful attribute that could be safely gleaned from spec sheet data?

The ultra high nominal 220 VI 0W-20s such as TGMO, MGMO, Sustina, SynGard etc use a different type of polymer that actually has a lower treat rate. Besides shear stability is not an automatic requirement of a synthetic oil so I wouldn't even mention shear stability at all.
 
I like the premise, for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)

For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others

I also propose if they make this a sticky they first have to get rid of another one, I hate it when the first page of threads is half filled up with stickies (even if they are useful)
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless.

That's another common misconception that d00df00d might want to address - technically there was no lawsuit.



In Germany there was an actual lawsuit and that term is still as valid today as it was then and it is enforced.
 
Group III synthetics are still unable to handle the heat of certain turbocharger shafts. The difference is that modern turbo's are designed to delay failure regardless of oil type. However, that does not mean coking has been avoided. The shaft regularly reaches 900 degrees F and no type of water cooled housing stops that.

coking-heat-damage.jpg

pr2723336488663_dfebc7c11e.jpg
 
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