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OVERKILL does a great job explaining these things in one paragraph or less.
PROPOSED STICKY: On "real" vs. "fake" synthetics
- Thread starter d00df00d
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless.
That's another common misconception that d00df00d might want to address - technically there was no lawsuit.
It's my understand that "it" was an FTC decision at one of their hearings.
Originally Posted By: C4Dave
But due to a law suit, the term has been rendered useless.
That's another common misconception that d00df00d might want to address - technically there was no lawsuit.
It's my understand that "it" was an FTC decision at one of their hearings.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
It's my understand that "it" was an FTC decision at one of their hearings.
In the US, it was a ruling of National Advertising Division of Better Business Bureaus in response to a claim filed by Mobil Oil.
It's my understand that "it" was an FTC decision at one of their hearings.
In the US, it was a ruling of National Advertising Division of Better Business Bureaus in response to a claim filed by Mobil Oil.
Sorry i didn't get anything enlightening out of it.
IMHO this would be a better sticky.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
IMHO this would be a better sticky.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
Originally Posted By: sicko
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.
This
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.
This
Originally Posted By: Trav
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
I'm dubious of turbine people talking engine oil. I don't think they really get internal combustion engines.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
I'm dubious of turbine people talking engine oil. I don't think they really get internal combustion engines.
All very good explanations.
I'm a fan of things being labeled for what they actually are.
Label Synthetic as "Synthetic",
Label Group III or IV as "Group III/IV Semi Synthetic" or similar,
Label Dino as "Conventional".
Marketing has screwed up the truth of a lot of things in the name of the almighty dollar. Give me truth any day.
Now, if they want to say that a Group III/IV performs like synthetic then by all means put it on the bottle. But tell me what I'm getting. Hasn't the question of which oil is made with what Group by what manufacturer been a thorn in the side of BITOGers for years?
I'm a fan of things being labeled for what they actually are.
Label Synthetic as "Synthetic",
Label Group III or IV as "Group III/IV Semi Synthetic" or similar,
Label Dino as "Conventional".
Marketing has screwed up the truth of a lot of things in the name of the almighty dollar. Give me truth any day.
Now, if they want to say that a Group III/IV performs like synthetic then by all means put it on the bottle. But tell me what I'm getting. Hasn't the question of which oil is made with what Group by what manufacturer been a thorn in the side of BITOGers for years?
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Everyone that thinks a Group III (such as Visom) is not synthetic, please give a technical discussion on severe hydrocracking and why that does not qualify. Alternatively a discussion on GTL could be substituted.
Also show how these products are materially inferior when blended with PAO, as they are often done.
Also show how these products are materially inferior when blended with PAO, as they are often done.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I like the premise, for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
I also propose if they make this a sticky they first have to get rid of another one, I hate it when the first page of threads is half filled up with stickies (even if they are useful)
Gp. III base stocks are 'processed' or 'cleaned' (hydro processed) into a more consistent and uniform size oil particles. Performing very well.
GP. IV are manufactured/engineered from the ground up, much in the same way you make plastic, instead POA's or Esters for engine oils. Amsoil and mobil use PAO's
I like the premise, for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
I also propose if they make this a sticky they first have to get rid of another one, I hate it when the first page of threads is half filled up with stickies (even if they are useful)
Gp. III base stocks are 'processed' or 'cleaned' (hydro processed) into a more consistent and uniform size oil particles. Performing very well.
GP. IV are manufactured/engineered from the ground up, much in the same way you make plastic, instead POA's or Esters for engine oils. Amsoil and mobil use PAO's
Is SuperTech synthetic real or fake? That's all I wanna know.
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I like the premise, for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
I also propose if they make this a sticky they first have to get rid of another one, I hate it when the first page of threads is half filled up with stickies (even if they are useful)
Gp. III base stocks are 'processed' or 'cleaned' (hydro processed) into a more consistent and uniform size oil particles. Performing very well.
GP. IV are manufactured/engineered from the ground up, much in the same way you make plastic, instead POA's or Esters for engine oils. Amsoil and mobil use PAO's
Plastics are typically made from petroleum.
Mobil can use a combination. In the past, Mobil has used Group III oil blended with Group IV
Esters.... they can be made from vegetable oil. Example: Renewable Lubes HOBS is vegetable oil based.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
I like the premise, for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
I also propose if they make this a sticky they first have to get rid of another one, I hate it when the first page of threads is half filled up with stickies (even if they are useful)
Gp. III base stocks are 'processed' or 'cleaned' (hydro processed) into a more consistent and uniform size oil particles. Performing very well.
GP. IV are manufactured/engineered from the ground up, much in the same way you make plastic, instead POA's or Esters for engine oils. Amsoil and mobil use PAO's
Plastics are typically made from petroleum.
Mobil can use a combination. In the past, Mobil has used Group III oil blended with Group IV
Esters.... they can be made from vegetable oil. Example: Renewable Lubes HOBS is vegetable oil based.
Oops, yes I never meant to have Esters in there, they are Group V. Thanks.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Oops, yes I never meant to have Esters in there, they are Group V. Thanks.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
All oils, no matter the Group of the basestock are engineered
Oops, yes I never meant to have Esters in there, they are Group V. Thanks.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
All oils, no matter the Group of the basestock are engineered
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Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Mobil has used Group III oil blended with Group IV
This. Mobil 1 is a group III oil with some pao and esters added to complete the formula.
Mobil has used Group III oil blended with Group IV
This. Mobil 1 is a group III oil with some pao and esters added to complete the formula.
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Oops, yes I never meant to have Esters in there, they are Group V. Thanks.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
All oils, no matter the Group of the basestock are engineered
Well, chemically, true synthetics are tailer made to exacting specs from building blocks. Gp. III are processed from oil molecules that already exist, then hydro treated. Both are very good, but they are like comparing a tire for Formula 1 to the very best high performance street tire, they are just built different.
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Oops, yes I never meant to have Esters in there, they are Group V. Thanks.
You know what I mean by 'engineered'.
All oils, no matter the Group of the basestock are engineered
Well, chemically, true synthetics are tailer made to exacting specs from building blocks. Gp. III are processed from oil molecules that already exist, then hydro treated. Both are very good, but they are like comparing a tire for Formula 1 to the very best high performance street tire, they are just built different.
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: sicko
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.
And that would be a good thing. The numerous "real" vs "fake" synthetic threads don't add anything of value to BITOG, and mostly just result in bickering.
Exactly the point.
Originally Posted By: sicko
But if we stopped splitting hairs and finding things to bicker about, this site's activity would drop dramatically.
And that would be a good thing. The numerous "real" vs "fake" synthetic threads don't add anything of value to BITOG, and mostly just result in bickering.
Exactly the point.
Originally Posted By: Solarent
for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
True, but not really on topic.
What's useful to engineers is one thing; what's useful to everyday people trying to make a call about engine oil is something else.
Bickering about base oils is almost always unproductive for everyday people. Bickering about "synthetic" vs. "non-synthetic" is worse than unproductive. That's the point.
for clarity it would be good to offer a definition of API groups I & II as conventional, and III, IV & V as synthetic. (Even if you don't agree this is widely accepted in the industry)
For example
III - Synthetics derived from petroleum sources (including GTL)
IV - Synthetics derived from PAO
V - Others
True, but not really on topic.
What's useful to engineers is one thing; what's useful to everyday people trying to make a call about engine oil is something else.
Bickering about base oils is almost always unproductive for everyday people. Bickering about "synthetic" vs. "non-synthetic" is worse than unproductive. That's the point.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Group III synthetics are still unable to handle the heat of certain turbocharger shafts. The difference is that modern turbo's are designed to delay failure regardless of oil type. However, that does not mean coking has been avoided. The shaft regularly reaches 900 degrees F and no type of water cooled housing stops that.
Good point. So what's the implication for the OP?
Group III synthetics are still unable to handle the heat of certain turbocharger shafts. The difference is that modern turbo's are designed to delay failure regardless of oil type. However, that does not mean coking has been avoided. The shaft regularly reaches 900 degrees F and no type of water cooled housing stops that.
Good point. So what's the implication for the OP?
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Trav
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
I'm dubious of turbine people talking engine oil. I don't think they really get internal combustion engines.
True, but I like the link. Seems like something that should be included.
Originally Posted By: Trav
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends
I'm dubious of turbine people talking engine oil. I don't think they really get internal combustion engines.
True, but I like the link. Seems like something that should be included.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Is SuperTech synthetic real or fake? That's all I wanna know.
Supertech will be a III.
Is SuperTech synthetic real or fake? That's all I wanna know.
Supertech will be a III.
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