Pre-OBDII musings

[supton]

Question: would you trade out of an OBDII car for a pre-OBDII car, even if you drove 20kmiles/year?

CEL is on in the VW again, and while I suspect I'll likely fix it, it's a bit of a nuisance. The rust that is piling up is worrying too. All those years I didn't do squat for corrosion are catching up to me.

I was toying with selling and buying say a Saturn or a Corolla; but why trade one 9 year old car for a 10+ year old car? One set of known problems for an unknown set... Does not make sense, even if I could flip my VW and pocket some cash in the process (diesel station wagon, does have some value left; would replace with a generic sedan and use the remainder for snow tires for my "good" vehicles). Only compelling reason I can think up is that, if I go pre-OBDII, then I don't have to deal with emission checks. I mean, if I got out of having to go to specialty shops, and dealing with VW-specific issues, and start with something rust-free, those are all good things: but I'm not sure by themselves it makes great sense, since all used cars are gambles. [Just like holding onto an old car with known problems, hmm...]

Thoughts? One reservation is the simple fact that pre-OBDII is now 18 years old. It's cool to own t-shirts old enough to vote, but at 20kmiles/year is it really that wise to go that old? I'm thinking I'd be better off newer, whatever it is, rather than shop that old, unless if I could find a great rust-free low-milage deal.

 

[Donald]

Maybe if you bought the car down south and it had been down there since it was new. But you are in NH. Salt is part of the NE culture.

Old = less air bags which are important.

Old probably means many of the rubber bushings, and other rubber parts have dry rot.

It will not impress the chicks.

 

[supton]

Married now, and my wife doesn't care about my car, since she won't likely be driving it. Ever. Unless if it was a sports car or something... Not very likely!

Really after just something to run back and forth to work. 45 miles each way, 5 days a week. On wintery days I'll either stay home, or drive the truck, so I'm not too concerned with winter driving capability.

 

[scurvy]

The devil you know (that still has parts available and an active community at TDIClub) is likely better than the one you don't know IME.

The fuel savings alone with the TDI should go a long way to catching up on the rot and 'fixing' the emissions issues. What's the issue now? These aren't terribly difficult cars for DIY repairs, a shop isn't strictly necessary.

Chiptuning can certainly make the emissions issues... easier. Jeff in Red Lion PA would be a good guy to talk to about any specifics. You can also get better fuel economy after a retune assuming you keep your foot out of it.

There's also the nutty idea of a rolling chassis from a desert state with a blown engine and transmission...

 

[supton]

That's the issue. I had it tuned to get rid of the EGR system. Worked great for 8 months, now it's throwing a for once! legitimate code. Probably a bad MAF or something, dunno, am working on getting that answer. Car is a hoot to drive, though. Been getting 48mpg in this cool weather, despite being flogged.

I screwed myself on a bunch of decisions here: I bought summer tires for this car last year, Nokian enTyres, which work great. But I'm not about to test them in winter. My snow tires flat spotted this winter, and are now shot. Wifey wants snow tires this year for her car Then I bought the truck--and the truck is going to need snow tires, so, buy three sets of tires this year??? I bought the summer tires, thinking it was a good move; now I regret that...

I suppose I could make do, buy two sets of snows, leave the Jetta alone, and drive the truck any time it looks iffy for winter weather. Then I just need to fix the CEL, buy two fenders and a door, as I don't think it'll pass inspection this year around with the amount of steel those items are missing.

 

[eljefino]

It would be cool to find a 95 saturn SL1 for example with 100k. The issue with commuter cars though is that people commute in them so low mileage cream puffs are hard to find. 1995 was about the apex of the saturn production, too. My 95 wagon has less rust on it than my wife's 2007 HHR, which is pretty sad.

On the flip side I just cured (knock on wood) an EVAP leak for the first time ever by simply visually inspecting hoses and finding a split one. If you had a smoke machine you could buy $400 beaters with EVAP problems, sticker them, and drive them a year (or just a winter?)

Add RWD volvos from the early 90s to your list, though at 20k a year you might not want to gas them. The metal holds up though and they're a pleasure to work on. And they're fancy but not too fancy if you like the euro experience.

 

[IndyIan]

I think 48 mpg and 90 mile/day commute makes your VW worth fixing the odd time. I guess you could keep an eye out for a mint early 90's car as your VW doesn't depreciate much with mileage.
My Neon got into a trouble free groove for its last 3-4 years, just didn't seem to need anything and I've heard of 5spd's getting 40mpg...
I guess even the Tracker just hasn't had any engine issues at all except for an O2 sensor... And I can't see why a 2000-2005 Neon wouldn't be near anvil reliable as I don't think anything really changed since 1996. Probably most people would still rather keep the VW wagon instead of getting a Neon and couple grand though.
Go try a 2000+ Civic or Corolla, they might get near your mileage with less problems.

 

[supton]

Yeah, perhaps that is what I should do, fix the Jetta (again), just need to hash it out in words and get convinced of it (again). I'll feel better once I get this stupid CEL fixed.

 

[scurvy]

You do have VCDS by now, I hope?

 

[supton]

No, haven't coughed up the money for VAG-COM. Since I'm only just starting to get to the point where I'd be willing to work on my cars, I've put off the purchase.

 

[scurvy]

Surely someone 'nearby' has one you can borrow.

20k miles per annum means lots of folks are nearby.

 

[supton]

Well, I have the trouble code already (Scanguage). Will work with the chip tuner tomorrow and see what I can look into. Code is for insufficent EGR flow, which is true: part of the tune was so I could remove the EGR system. CEL stayed off for 8 months, so I don't think it's the tune, but rather a bad MAF or something. Don't know where to look just yet, and since it's not stock I'm pretty sure most corner shops won't have a clue where to start.

20k is driving back and forth to work. 45 miles each way. Living in the sticks means relatively few people around. Honestly, it's not like I'm going all that far. I went to a couple of the VW TDi GTG's, but it was close to 2 hours away from home, and life got busy with kids.

Just when I thought I was set, with a TDi guru opening shop only 20 miles from me--he goes and closes shop! Ouch. Before that I was driving 2.5 hours to go to a trusted shop. I'm just getting to the point where I'll have non-engine work done locally.

 

[dareo]

I assume you want to pass state inspections easier. Can you clear the code and get tested before it comes back?

Do they do tailpipe tests for OBD I where you live? It can be much harder to pass an OBD I car here in Utah than OBD II. If they don't do those that would be a good reason to find an old beater with a heater to get to work in. I'd suggest a 95 sentra, since the toyotas and hondas are often way overpriced.

 

[supton]

No sniffer, but it has to have readiness flags set. It seems to be setting the flag, not sure how long it takes for that; then sets a CEL. About a week in between resets. I've got another 6 months before inspection, so I'm not worried. Yet.

Pre-96 and it's safety-only, no OBDII checks. I suppose they could fail you for missing emissions equipment, but not very likely.

 

[dareo]

So jealous of your no OBD I testing!

Another great way to solve your check engine light would be a 2013 Jetta tdi, base model 22k. Or better yet, the passat TDI for 26k. Porsche Cayenne comes diesel now...

Why do the shiny things have to cost so much!

 

[01rangerxl]

I had an OBDI vehicle for a little while...it was rust that killed it. It would have passed an e-test I am sure, but it was exempt due to being pre-OBDII.

Old vehicles can be fine for DDs if you take care of them and they don't rust. Once they start rusting, it's just a matter of time before they become junk. If you find a rust free, maintained pre-OBDII car, there's no reason it won't be reliable. You will need to keep an eye on everything though. Rubber parts, old seals, etc.

AL doesn't have state inspections of any kind, and there are tons of older vehicles on the road down here. 18 years is nothing, and cars were built pretty good in the 1990s anyway. IMO, that's when some of the most reliable vehicles in history were built.

 

[armos]

I agree with the principle of sticking with the car whose problems you know, at least for as long as the car you know is staying manageable. A car is worth more to it's experienced owner than it is to a stranger who sees it as a wildcard. A car of equal market value will need more money invested to get it into a known condition, equal to what you already had.
Of course if you "downgrade" to something of lesser value, then you might still save money and end up with a simpler vehicle to maintain.


But as far as OBD1 vs OBD2:
Some are worse than others, but many OBD2 cars don't age well. The "check engine" codes are picky and can become a tiresome nag, and at least out here you automatically fail emissions testing if that light is on, regardless of the tailpipe results. I find them more frustrating to diagnose and parts are more numerous and expensive.
I find OBD1 more pleasant to live with. They're also easier to get through emissions, at least in my circumstances. If they're completely exempt where you are, then so much the better. If I was buying a car that would be a huge criteria for me, as long as rust isn't bad and the car appears well kept.
Due to age, you should expect such a car to need more attention, at least when first purchased. Not necessarily more money but more attention. Over time you should be able to resolve any unexpected issues and make it reliable, if it isn't already.

Parts availability is a non-issue unless it's something that's unique to a rare model. Parts for that era of cars are cheap and when something breaks, it's easier to figure out. That's a nice trait for a daily driver, if you do your own car work. If you hire labor then that changes the arithmetic.

Something else I like about OBD1 vehicles is that the ECMs are simple and largely reverse-engineered, so they're relatively easy to datalog and tune nowadays. That surely varies depending on model though, and I know many people do that stuff on OBD2 so it isn't strictly an OBD1 argument.
If you can get control of it then the computer becomes a tool instead of an annoyance in a magic box.
The technology in OBD1 era vehicles is right at the level I'm most comfortable and satisfied with.

 

[supton]

Finally started digging into rust repairs on my Jetta. I *think* I can patch most of the holes; I mean, I can glue patches over the fenders (instead of spending $100 per fender). Same for the rocker; I think it has not put a hole into the passenger compartment. Yet... It's very close, the metal is feeling very thin, and I fear it's only time.

Needs a driver's door too, as that is probably too far gone to patch. Having a devil of a time figuring out how I'll patch the rear hatch though. Snapped two of the four bolts holding the license plate on, go figure.

There is a hole next to the release button too, above the plate. If I were to find another hatch it's what, a 3 man job to R&R? I should call a junkyard and see what a non-rusted hatch costs.

Door is separating along the top. I did see a door on CL for $50, not sure how hard it is to replace.

Toss in the rear alignment issue (need shims to get rid of toe issues, or deal with shorter tire life (like 40k) and feathering), and what is like some $200 to maybe $500 engine work (aforementioned CEL) and I'm completely unmotivated to fix. Car would save me $3k/year in fuel, over the truck, let alone depreciation costs (at a cost of about $600 for insurance/registration, once I drop collision, still paying another $400/year for collision on the Jetta).

But I'm kicking myself for years of neglect now, and just want to start over again--mostly to bury my mistakes. Oddly enough, I'm still on target--when I bought the car, I planned on a 10 year ownership, with zero residual left; selling now would still be on target, of sorts. Just seems like I should have done better, just a hectic time in life (bought a house, had two kids, busy with career, those sorts of excuses).

Edit: bumping my old thread 'cuz I found myself the other day wondering about buying an OBDI vehicle down south. Again.

 

[hypervish]

Wow, that's a ton of rust for an 04.

I have nary a speck of rust on my RX, and I too am located in the rust belt.

 

[supton]

I've got 90k more than you, but point taken. Did not want to deal with a dealer and have to get a rental for a week plus; I went a couple weeks ago and got denied on the 12 year perforation warranty, which was to be expected.