Pre-luber draining battery gives hard cold startup

[sifan]

As I turn the ignition, my pre-luber pump will run for 40 seconds automatically. I usually start the engine after 20 seconds of pumping. I have no problem starting the engine when the temp stays above 30sF. Last night the temp dropped to below 30F. This morning I followed the same routine, despite of 1 hour and 46 minutes of engine block heater/oil pan heater/ATF pan heater, and barely able to crank up the engine while the pump was running. The pump also grumbled for few seconds when it was turned on which never happened before. I assume this was due to cold thick oil in the pump. For those who have pre-lubers,

1) Do your pumps behave the same way?
2) Do you have hard time starting the engine due to battery drain by the pump in the winter?
3) If so, how do you get around this problem?
4) I am thinking of charging my battery (Odyssey PC1200) prior each engine startup, but, will the battery charging be effective under very cold temp?
5) Should I use a battery warmer? I am not sure if there is one for my Odyssey batter.

 

[Gary Allan]

1) I don't have one - so, I don't know
2) ditto
3) ditto
4) not a bad idea. It should be effective at any temperature
5) Sure, why not?

Just make sure you don't have a battery temp sensor under the battery. I mean ..it's okay of you do ..just don't cover it with anything that will inhibit it from determining the batteries temp.

 

[sifan]

This morning I found out that the circuit breaker of my outdoor outlets was off. So, my engine was not pre-heated yesterday morning and this morning. I bought a Sears jump-start battery last night and recharged it overnight. It came in handy this morning to assist engine startup.

Last night before I got off work I pre-heated the engine for 2 and half hours. The engine started right away without any hesitation. I think as long as the engine is properly pre-heated, the battery drain by the pre-luber becomes a non-issue. Since I can not always find an outlet to pre-heat my engine in the winter, I will always carry the Sears jump-start battery with me just in case.

 

[slalom44]

I have never had any trouble starting my car in the winter. I use 0W-30 in my engine to help with cold winter starts (Honda specifies 10W-30 for my car)and when I park my car in the garage for more than one day, I hook the battery up to a tricle charger/desulfator (BatteryMINDer)which keeps the battery fully charged and slightly warmer in cold weather. My car (and the original battery) are 4 years old.

You may want to take your vehicle somewhere to check how many CCA your battery is putting out. A preluber shouldn't be affecting engine starts that much.

 

[sifan]

My Odyssey battery is about 2 and half years old. I am not sure if the battery relocated to the trunk affects the charging by the alternator. I uses M1 5W30 oil, and always park my car outdoors since I do not have a garage.

I bought a battery charger recommended for my battery

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/accessories/aci.htm

I will try to use it when I can find an electric outlet.

 

[sifan]

A) How long does your pump run at 32F with a cold engine?
B) Does it make unusual sound at the start on a very cold day?
C) When you charge your battery, do you take the battery out of your car or leave it in the car with both battery cables disconnected?

 

[Gary Allan]

sifan ..I don't think the trunk mount effects the charging ..but it sure can effect the starting. Your resistance goes way up in your cables in the cold. You've probably tripled the distance. The battery POS+ cable runs right to the starter. It's the shortest path that they can take given the limitations of placing the battery.

I think that investing in either some type of MONSTER cables ..or just running another set of cables along side the ones that you have already (the POS+ cable would be the biggie), that you can solve your problem here.

 

[slalom44]

• When it's around 32F with a cold engine, it takes around 15 to 20 seconds for me to get pressure.
• My prelube pump is a little louder on really cold starts, but it isn't a huge sound difference.
• I never take the battery out of my car.

• 
  I agree with Gary Allan - there's a tremendous drain from a long battery cable. Your power is dramatically reduced by having that much distance between your battery and your starter.

 

[sifan]

Last night I connected the Sears battery pack to the car battery in the trunk to assist engine startup since the car had been sitting in the below 20F outdoors for more than 36 hours. Without electricity available for all my heating devices to warm up the engine or charge the battery I assumed I was doing my car a favor. Well, the pre-luber motor ran much faster without the usual moaning and groaning in this cold weather. The engine started up fine.

This morning when I tried to start up the engine, the pre-luber did not work. It turned out the 10A fuse in the engine bay that resided between the pre-luber control module and the positive end of battery cable was burned off. I immediately replaced the fuse, and the pre-luber worked again.

Gary - Since there is enough electric current passing thru the existing battery cable from my trunk to the engine bay to burn off the 10A fuse, do you think there is really a need for a second battery cable as you suggested in the earlier post of this thread? I think my battery might be weak in cold temperature.

 

[mjo]

I'm sorry Gary but it's not the cable that increases resistance. The resistance decreases in the copper cable with a lower temperature. The resistance is in the engine pumping the thick fluids and in the weaker battery.

 

[sifan]

The next logical step is to upgrade my current Odyssey battery PC1200(38lbs)to PC1700(59lbs), which is heavy and expensive.

Adding bypass filter for the sake of engine introduces the problem of oil starvation during startup. Adding pre-luber for solving oil starvation problem requires battery upgrade. Upgrading battery creates additional weight and lower gas mileage. Adding new devices introduce more problems while burning money along the way.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

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I'm sorry Gary but it's not the cable that increases resistance. The resistance decreases in the copper cable with a lower temperature. The resistance is in the engine pumping the thick fluids and in the weaker battery.

---

None in 8-10ft of added cable? ...and take a gander at the temps when he first reported it. Hardly extreme. Now if he had a weak battery ..then the added length surely would exacerbate the condition.

I've seen copper cables "jump" due to being too cold and the shock of current going through them. Semiconductors (no-I'm not saying that copper is a semiconductor-)are considered "self correcting" due to lowered resistance as they heat. The only time I've heard of resistance lowering with cold is in terms of superconductors in stuff like liquid nitrogen or some ultra cold solution. Pb, iirc, is one of the best in that environment. I certainly could have the wrong information ..as not all things taught are correct.

 

[mjo]

Yep, metals decrease their resistance with lower temperatures. If you don't believe me reference "resistivity" on Wikipedia.

Lead acid batteries lose some of their voltage in low temperatures. The problem is that the electrolyte must physically circulate in order to move ions between the electrodes and to produce a voltage. A fatter battery cable may not help in such extreme cold.

Here's an informative website:
Website with tips on buying car batteries

Other than connecting a second battery to the terminals in the engine compartment, there is one thing that would help to some degree. In theory, you could connect a very high farad capacitor (a.k.a. supercapacitor) in the engine compartment between + and -. The autocompanies use supercaps in hybrid cars to store brake energy in regenerative braking and to help lower the load on the batteries during all-electric mode. They are great at delivering spikes of very high current.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm not ignorant of battery chemistry ..although admittedly I haven't bothered pondering it for about 30 years. I haven't been poor enough to have a sulfated battery for many ..many years.

I did get taught some misinformation though. I had offered that the resistance of conductors would drop as chilled and was told that heating would allow the valance electrons to move easier in the excited state. This is the first time I've had that info contradicted with the notion of "collisions". Current flows in a kinetic-like action. I do thank you for the correction.

 

[mjo]

Hey, no problem, Gary! Although I wish I could have helped Sifan fix his problem.

Sifan, does the pump have to prime each time you start it?

 

[sifan]

According to the vendor's guide the pump only needs to be primed during installation which I did. Does this answer your question? I do not know much about priming the pump. What is the difference between a self-prime pump and a non-self-prime one? If a pump is not self-prime, how do you prime it then?

I bought a Honda generator EU1000i off eBay, and tried it last night the first time at the company parking lot. It was 16F. I connected it to my engine block heater (400W), oil pan heating pad (125W), ATF pan heating pad (120W), and battery charger (120W). Since only 900W (continuous) is available, I did not connect the interior portable car heater. I sat in my car for 1 hour freezing my a$$ because I did not want the generator to walk away. But, it worked out fine at the end. The generator was rated 59dB at full load, but it was still very loud to my standard. The exhaust smelled awful. But at 9:30pm there were only couple cars/trucks in the lot; so, the noise would not cause a disturbance. I wish I could buy a larger model EU2000i (1600W continuous) to run the portable heater at the same time, but it would be too heavy for me to carry at 59 lbs. The one I bought has dry weight of 29 lbs, which is a bit heavy already for me to carry from my car to my office (just to keep the generator engine warm at room temp). I need to come up with some kind of shoulder strap to carry it. When I got home, I brought the generator inside my home to keep it warm at night. The generator is sitting next to my feet at office now. Its gas smell makes me sneeze often, but I put up with it.

 

[Gary Allan]

sifan- Rock-on, man. I'm sure there is some award around here somewhere that has your name on it.

 

[427Z06]

Very interesting post. I have one of those EU2000i, new in the box, in case of a long time emergency. Haven't had the need to use it yet.

Those Odyssey batteries are pretty fascinating too. I'm not sure if your aware that the PC1200s are rated for 550 CCA. Maybe the PC1500 would of been more appropriate for your application with 880 CCA.

 

[mjo]

Admittedly, I've never used a prelube pump. But after thinking it over there may be a few solutions to your problem. You might fix the noise by taking apart, cleaning it out and then repacking the motor with grease. If this is a DC motor with brushes, the commutator might be gummed up and making poor electrical contact with the brushes. In cold weather warming up the motor first should help thin out the grease inside of the motor. I'm not sure how you might do that - an electric blanket? I carry an empty milk carton in my car for a hot water container to use for the occasion of finding lots of ice on my windows. You might be able to use hot water to warm up the prelube motor before using it.

Also when doing a quick search for "hydraulic pump" or "oil pump" or "fluid transfer pump" on Ebay I find a few possible inexpensive pumps, less than $100, rated > 35 psi that you could use as replacements. Might be a good investment.

Best of luck to you

 

[sifan]

Maybe I should consider buying a filter heating pad.
http://www.padheaters.com./

Hmm... I should have bought the EU2000i to accommodate additional heating devices.

My PC1200 battery is only 3 years old which should have a service life of 8 years according to the vendor. It would be economically unfeasible to upgrade it now; besides, I have already had a portable generator. In warm weather it has no problem starting up the engine.

I will look up those replacement pump. Thanks.