Pre-luber draining battery gives hard cold startup

[burntkat]

heck, on second thought-- nix that piece of 4AWG for the preluber. Feed off the starter solenoid where you landed the battery cable, into the relay you are using for the preluber, and a piece of 8AWG from the relay outlet terminal to the preluber. Fused, of course.

Let's save the man some money wherever we can.

 

[Steve S]

When I had my boat a big block Chev with a 7,500 rev limited max rpm I made a preluber with a power steering pump from a small electric forklift . Boats sit for long periods of time a prelube pump is a good idea. The pump was setup so I would hook up my drill motor to the shaft of the pump and spin the pump untill the oil pressure reached and held 80 psi on the oil pressure gauge with 15w/40 Delo 400.One January when the temperature was 29 degrees I decided to go for a boat ride I hooked up the drill motor to the pump and let it rip before I reached 50 psi the drill motor was smoking . Takes lots of power to pump cold oil .

 

[burntkat]

Yessir, I am well familiar with that fact. Rebuilt a Mustang motor with a bud, finally got time to prime it, we took a Milwaukee Holeshooter (pretty much THE word in 1/2" corded drills) with the temp outside 15 degrees (yeah- in SC. We were NOT amused) we sat there and burned that darn drill out to the point it no longer functioned.

Bet he had fun explaining that one to the boss.

 

[Steve S]

Quote:

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The current lost due to the length of the cables, needed to reach the almost dead short is probably the root of the problem . Load test the battery,odds are low or fail

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BurnKat, the main subject of this post....The more plumbing there is the easier it is to clog up the pipes. What we are doing here is adding lots of complication for minimal if any real advantage.

 

[Gary Allan]

I do see your point that the cable becomes part of the resistive load at a certain length. I had a long debate with ..oddly enough, a "beyond just a" electrician. There's a tendency when some put dual battery setups where one battery does all the work and the other will basically sit there and merely "take up slack". You've got to carefully match cable length ..and maybe even run individual leads from the alt.

To make a short story a little longer the debate revolved around an auxiliary batter installation where I stated that no isolator was needed ..aside from perhaps a relay to avoid current draw during startup ..as long as you joined the battery into the system only at the alt lug. That is, you could run any and all your auxiliary devices off of the one battery and you would never see the load at the other battery. The reason being that the lug of the alt will always have a greater potential then either battery as the engine is running ..aside from, perhaps .a surface charge, no battery can produce more voltage then the alt when running. No potential ..no discharge from the regular system battery.

He kept arguing that the lead from the alt was a straight piece of wire and not part of the equation/view..but it too becomes part of the resistive load when the battery dumps current into the line. All you have to do is put a volt meter between the alt lug and the POS+ terminal while pulling a load. There will be a voltage drop. If there is none ..then there's no potential difference ..and therefore no current flow. Any battery ONLY connected to the system through the alt lug will see, typically, a 15V opposing voltage (lug to ground) ..something no battery can produce ..hence it does matter if you run the normal battery dead ..the alt will just distribute current to the lower potential ..but the batteries will never "meet" ..so to speak. At least beyond the sharing of the voltage at the Alt lug.

 

[sifan]

I used the full length of battery cable that came in the kit even though I did not need it that long. I bolted the negative cable in the trunk since the kit only provided 3 ft long negative cable.

How thick and flexible is the 0 gauge welding cable? The 2 gauge positive cable that came with the kit was very flexible which allowed me to route it through the interior of my car. I drilled a 1/2" or 3/4" hole (can't remember now) on the fire wall for it to pass through. Since I run out space on the firewall to drill another hole for the future negative cable to pass through, I will have to route it beneath the car chassis. Will the cable insulator protect itself from road debris?

Sure I would like to pay you to build the battery cables, but, I will have to measure the length tonight. Thanks for the tips.

 

[burntkat]

Good #@$%!, man. I don't have the packaging-- how long a lead is this? There is no lookup reference on the Ampacity chart for "longest that came in the box" Take a bloomin' guess! (all very tongue in cheek, you understand)

The fact you grounded the battery to the chassis says a lot. Follow my advice in the other post. I've given you the solution. Now execute.

PLEASE tell me you fused the battery within 18", and you used grommets when you went through metal with the cable?

Welding cable is FAR superior in every way to any car audio cable. More flexible, more resistant jacket, etc. Put it this way- I can drop molten steel on my cable and it only scorches the jacket a bit. Of course I am referring to spall, not a crucible of motlten steel. I wouldn't run it against a manifold or exhaust, but that is only common sense.

Quote:

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I used the full length of battery cable that came in the kit even though I did not need it that long. I bolted the negative cable in the trunk since the kit only provided 3 ft long negative cable.

How thick and flexible is the 0 gauge welding cable? The 2 gauge positive cable that came with the kit was very flexible which allowed me to route it through the interior of my car. I drilled a 1/2" or 3/4" hole (can't remember now) on the fire wall for it to pass through. Since I run out space on the firewall to drill another hole for the future negative cable to pass through, I will have to route it beneath the car chassis. Will the cable insulator protect itself from road debris?

Sure I would like to pay you to build the battery cables, but, I will have to measure the length tonight. Thanks for the tips.

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[sifan]

Not sure what you meant by "fused the battery within 18"? I used a grommet on the firewall. The positive cable came in 20 ft.

 

[burntkat]

did you put a fuse within 18" of the battery, on the positive lead?

I would suggest if you're going to run the cable under the car (nothing wrong with this) that you use rubber jacketed steel clips to bolt it to the framerail or unibody, as approriate. Take care not to drill through anything important (fuel lines, etc). But I'll need the measurement for the battery location to the starter solenoid for the + wire, the battery location to the grounding point the factory used on the engine to original battery location for the - wire, the alternator to starter solenoid lug, and the starter solenoid lug to the preluber. All lengths to be as the cable is to be run, including a service loop. In other words-- you must take careful measurements, becuase if you don't they're liable to be too short. I won't be there with you installing these, so it's up to you to take care.

I will be out of town from 23FEB to 07MAR helping a friend move his family from CA to VA. Can't possibly get these to you before then, sorry.

 

[burntkat]

also need to know the type of car, or better yet-- need the threadpitch of your starter battery lug so I know what size of lug to use.

This will be the BIG cable on the starter, not the little one. For clarity, anytime I said "Starter solenoid" in the previous posts, I meant that large cable, so should have said the starter battery cable. Sorry, this is what happens when I don't get enough sleep

 

[sifan]

No fuse within 18" of the battery. However, my preluber draws from the positive end of battery cable in the engine bay with a 10A fuse. I wonder why you ask such a question.

No problem. I am not in a hurry since the winter weather starts to improve today. A 41F morning felt so warm after a week of 10-20F.

My preluber pump does not need to connect to the starter which came with its own wiring kit with one wire connecting to the ignition. So, I will need to provide the lengths for the following cables:

1) Positive cable from battery to starter,
2) Negative cable from battery to the original negative ground point,
3) and a cable from alternator to starter.

What are the diameters of 0 gauge and 00 gauge welding cables respectively?

 

[sifan]

My car is 2003 Toyota Echo. Hope this helps. I do not think I could find out the thread pitch of my starter battery lug.

 

[burntkat]

a basic google search will get you those diameters.

You DO need to attach the preluber to a high-current 12V source, where are you getting the motor power source from? This could be a large part of the problem as well.

 

[sifan]

The factory control module (assuming with a relay inside) has a red wire that connects directly to the positive battery post with a 10A fuse in between. The other orange line connects to ignition. The older preluber connects directly to starter as you described. But mine is a newer version.

http://www.pre-luber.com/installoverview.htm

 

[burntkat]

ok, sure. But it's designed for a setup where the battery is within 3 feet of the preluber, like most cars that have the battery in the engine compartment.

I'd still attach it to the starter batt terminal, keeping the wire as short as possible before it goes into that control module, while still fused. With a 2AWG cable between the battery and wherever the starter is, you're effectively attaching the pump straight to the battery.

 

[Ugly3]

I put a dual isolated battery set up in a 1974 hard starting Vega. Used 00 welding cable all around with soldered lugs on the ends. It started like the 4th of July all winter.

I would go to work early in the morning and leave the lights on in error. One battery would be dead, the folks in the parking lot would watch in amazment as I got in, started, and pulled out of the lot. It was a lot of fun!

 

[burntkat]

isn't it, though? I did/do the same thing in my 1990 XJ.

 

[mjo]

http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm

The site above has an excellent calculator to find the voltage drop of a variety of cable sizes and lengths. When ten amps are fed to the prelube motor before startup there is only a 2.4 mV drop in voltage on its way from the battery. The resistance of 2 AWG copper wire is only 2.4 mOhms and the cable itself is only dissipating 28 mW compared with 120 W the prelube pump is burning up. The dissipation of the copper cable is only 0.2% of the power output of the pump. Replacing the cables to the prelube pump won't help solve the problem - clean and reinstall your battery connections first. The oxidation from the battery posts would create MUCH more resistance than what is in a 2 AWG 15' cable! After cleaning the connections off with wet baking soda and a metal brush be sure to apply dielectric grease to prevent the oxidation from reforming.

The real sources of the slow pump problem were the cold temperatures causing the oil to thicken up and the lead acid battery losing power output. Replacing the cables to the pump with thicker cables will only cause the fuse to be blown sooner! Installing a wider hose for oil to flow, heater(s), and cleaning the cable connections all sound like solutions to me.

 

[burntkat]

sorry, you're wrong.

First off- you are overlooking the fact that half his circuit is going through the sheetmetal of the car. He needs to run a cable up front to the engine ground for the - side as well.

Plus, you assume he's going directly to the battery for his pump. He may be, but he is most certainly not using 2AWG for that run. Most likely, it's 10AWG, at best. And you miscalculated your voltage drop, besides.

Plus, we've not yet found out for certain what gauge wire is running from the ALT to the battery. Original postor- we need that info.

 

[sifan]

I just looked at my alternator, and it is using connectors for its wiring not just simple bolts as I thought. I am not sure how a battery cable can be connected to the alternator using a cable lug.

Hmmm... I tend to agree with mjo on his point on using larger battery cable will only burn the pump fuse sooner. There must had been enough current to drive the pump; otherwise, its 10A fuse would not have been blown. My preluber uses 1/2" hose as recommended by the vendor which is the largest hose available (the other choice is 3/8").

Last night I started my car without any problems at 47F. I believe the coldness weakened my battery, and also made the oil too thick for my preluber to pump similar to what burntkat and SteveS experienced.

I am thinking of upgrading my battery to a larger one with more CCA, also my preluber pump from the current 10A model to a 15A model. Upgrading the battery cable will also be nice.

burntkat - With the type of connectors on my alternator I am not sure how a cable lug can connect to it. I am thinking of omitting the complexity of cabling that involves alternator and starter, and just replacing the existing 2 AWG battery cables with 00 gauge welding cables but with the negative cable routed to the engine bay as you suggested. In this case, I would like to ask you to make two 20-ft cables (00 gauge welding cables with one red and one black if possible) with battery clamps on one ends and cable lugs on the others. If you agree, we can proceed on how to make the transaction. Thanks.