Pre-luber draining battery gives hard cold startup
- Thread starter sifan
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The man is on a mission ...back off!!
I salute sifan. Hail Sifan!! Hail Sifan
I salute sifan. Hail Sifan!! Hail Sifan
Take the preluber off and E Bay it , Go to a good repair shop and have the battery cables checked and properly repaired as needed , put in a real good top of the line battery , Johnson control makes really good batteries . Then have the charging system scoped by someone who knows how, then have that properly squared away. Run Amsoil 0w/30 and their eao oil filter and the Amsoil air filter change the oil via uoa taken at the vehicles oil change interval. Do this and your car will be very happy ; You will be too.
The current lost due to the length of the cables, needed to reach the almost dead short is probably the root of the problem . Load test the battery,odds are low or fail
yep, an oil cop!
Last night I started up the engine after it had been in 22F outdoors for 6 hours without any heating devices because I was in a hurry to go home. The preluber pump worked, and the engine started despite with the sign of weak battery. This morning I found out that the 10A fuse of preluber pump was blown again. It seems that the pump would have happily drawn all available current to pump the cold thick oil even to burn itself up if the protection of fuse were not there. It is obvious that I need to upgrade my battery plus switching to 0w30 synthetic oil in case I do not have time to heat up the engine/oil. The battery cable is not an issue.
The preluber vendor recommends to minimize the length of hose during installation to reduce the friction for oil to travel in winter. I took it lightly thinking M1 5w30 shouldn't be that hard to pump in cold weather. Well, I am dead wrong. The oil in the hose will be at ambient temp and no heating device is available to warm it up. However, if I had to install it again, I would install the same way since there was little space under the hood to work with.
When i relocated the battery to the trunk knowing one guy on the Internet who suggested to use the biggest available battery that would fit in the trunk to counter the battery cable resistance. I chose Odyssey PC1200 because it could deliver 1200A during the first 5 seconds. I thought it was good enough which it was until I installed the preluber.
No, I won't give up my preluber. This is the first winter since it was installed. It is also the first winter that I never hear the metal griding sound again from the engine when I start it up under below the freezing temp in the morning. Yeah, I better stock up the 10A fuses, and pick up some 0w30 synthetic oil on my way home today.
The preluber vendor recommends to minimize the length of hose during installation to reduce the friction for oil to travel in winter. I took it lightly thinking M1 5w30 shouldn't be that hard to pump in cold weather. Well, I am dead wrong. The oil in the hose will be at ambient temp and no heating device is available to warm it up. However, if I had to install it again, I would install the same way since there was little space under the hood to work with.
When i relocated the battery to the trunk knowing one guy on the Internet who suggested to use the biggest available battery that would fit in the trunk to counter the battery cable resistance. I chose Odyssey PC1200 because it could deliver 1200A during the first 5 seconds. I thought it was good enough which it was until I installed the preluber.
No, I won't give up my preluber. This is the first winter since it was installed. It is also the first winter that I never hear the metal griding sound again from the engine when I start it up under below the freezing temp in the morning. Yeah, I better stock up the 10A fuses, and pick up some 0w30 synthetic oil on my way home today.
Wow. Where to begin...
first of all, installing a bigger battery won't do #@$%! for inreased resistance of the battery cables. What sort of cable did you use- what gauge, multistrand, etc.
Welding cable, in 0 range or larger (ie, 00, 000, etc), makes excellent battery cables when you're relocating the battery. I honestly think they'd solve your problems.
The pump doesn't work well because you're trying to drive it without enough current-- owing to either too much resistance in the cables or a weak battery (probably both).
Make sure you have the motor mounted above the pump body of your preluber- -it's been known to happen that the seal leaks and lets oil into the motor, fouling it.
So, in short- tell us what you used for cables when you relocated your battery. Install properly-sized cables, a strong battery, leave the generator at home (and not IN your home-- you're a candidate for a Darwin Award with a generator sitting in your house venting fuel!), run synthetic of approriate grade, and you should have no proboems at these temps.
first of all, installing a bigger battery won't do #@$%! for inreased resistance of the battery cables. What sort of cable did you use- what gauge, multistrand, etc.
Welding cable, in 0 range or larger (ie, 00, 000, etc), makes excellent battery cables when you're relocating the battery. I honestly think they'd solve your problems.
The pump doesn't work well because you're trying to drive it without enough current-- owing to either too much resistance in the cables or a weak battery (probably both).
Make sure you have the motor mounted above the pump body of your preluber- -it's been known to happen that the seal leaks and lets oil into the motor, fouling it.
So, in short- tell us what you used for cables when you relocated your battery. Install properly-sized cables, a strong battery, leave the generator at home (and not IN your home-- you're a candidate for a Darwin Award with a generator sitting in your house venting fuel!), run synthetic of approriate grade, and you should have no proboems at these temps.
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He doesn't want "no problems" ..or rather "no apparent problems". He wants, as near as possible, no cold start wear. His only problems are the obstacles that pop up in achieving that goal in the manner he perceives furthers his efforts in those direction.
quit going through fuses-- what's the size of your cabling from the alternator to the battery- in AWG and distance- and what's the size of the wiring to your preluber- in AWG and distance?
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_752215_-1_10367
I used the above dual battery relocation kit from Jeg's.
I used the above dual battery relocation kit from Jeg's.
Well, almost all the battery relocation kits on the market use 2 gauge cables.
I installed my preluber with motor on top of the pump. I was aware of the leaky seal issue.
I installed my preluber with motor on top of the pump. I was aware of the leaky seal issue.
Again-- what gauge is the cable, and how long is it *in your installation*.
Well, almost all of the battery reloc. kits on the market overcharege for the compnoentry.
Honestly, I agree with him. I am going to assume you used about 15' of cable for the hot side. Now-- did you run a like piece of cable up to the engine block for the chassis ground, or did you simply bolt it to the chassis at the back of the car (if you did the latter, this is half your problem).
Go to a welding shop. Get whatever length of cable you used to reloc your battery, in at least a 0-gauge cable, preferably 00. Get enough to carry the + side of the circuit from the new batt location to the starter solenoid. Then get a piece of at least 4AWG long to go from the Alt + output to the new battery. Then get a piece of whatever gauge you ran for the new + side (0 or 00) long enough to go from the engine ground point the factory used, all the way to the battery new location. I STRONGLY suggest you solder these connections- a much superior connection, and it will keep out contaminants as well.
#@$%!, if you get me the measurements, I will build them for you. You pay materials and ship, and $20 for my time. I have built these sort of kits up for Jeep buds quite often, with no complaints. If you build them yourself, make sure to use electronics-grade solder, not plumbing solder.
Also, assuming you ran the pump motor supply from the battery-- another 15'? You did run through a relay, of course...
I suggest you spend a little time playing with the table and calculator here: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
With it, a 2AWG cable at 12VDC, with a 150A load (easy to do in a vehicle in the summer, with thin oil, when the starter initializes-- and surely will be worse now), we see
a .72VDC volt drop. And we're being conservative here.
Go to 0AWG and you see a .45VDC drop.
Go to 00AWG and you see a .34VDC drop. We seeing a trend here?
In short-- I have found your problem. Now go fix it.
I suspect your pump has a similar issue. Assuming a 15' run of 10AWG and leaving thick oil, cold temps, etc, out of the picture, you see a .3VDC drop. Run a piece of 4AWG to that puppy and you see a .077VDC drop. You read that right.
Overkill is ALWAYS the best way to go. My guesses are that you have undersized your mains cables somewhat, but undersized your ALT and pump cables even worse. Let's say you ran a piece of 10AWG to the battery, and it's obviously low. The Alt is trying to push 100A through it to recharge the battery, run the lighting, heater, etc. It's losing 3.08VDC. Yes, you read that right.
Here's what you need to do:
1) + AND - leads for battery reloc need to be replaced with 00AWG welding cable.
2) Piece of 8AWG from the ALT to the Starter Solenoid battery terminal. If you can run bigger than a 8AWG on your ALT terminal (ie: the lug will fit), do it.
3: Piece of 4AWG or better to the preluber, and make sure you're fusing it and running it through a relay so you don't fry whatever you're triggering it off of.
4) Of course, make sure you fuse all + leads at the appropriate amperage rating.
or, you could just move the darn battery back up front where it belongs. I forget, why did you move it to the back, again?
Honestly, I agree with him. I am going to assume you used about 15' of cable for the hot side. Now-- did you run a like piece of cable up to the engine block for the chassis ground, or did you simply bolt it to the chassis at the back of the car (if you did the latter, this is half your problem).
Go to a welding shop. Get whatever length of cable you used to reloc your battery, in at least a 0-gauge cable, preferably 00. Get enough to carry the + side of the circuit from the new batt location to the starter solenoid. Then get a piece of at least 4AWG long to go from the Alt + output to the new battery. Then get a piece of whatever gauge you ran for the new + side (0 or 00) long enough to go from the engine ground point the factory used, all the way to the battery new location. I STRONGLY suggest you solder these connections- a much superior connection, and it will keep out contaminants as well.
#@$%!, if you get me the measurements, I will build them for you. You pay materials and ship, and $20 for my time. I have built these sort of kits up for Jeep buds quite often, with no complaints. If you build them yourself, make sure to use electronics-grade solder, not plumbing solder.
Also, assuming you ran the pump motor supply from the battery-- another 15'? You did run through a relay, of course...
I suggest you spend a little time playing with the table and calculator here: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
With it, a 2AWG cable at 12VDC, with a 150A load (easy to do in a vehicle in the summer, with thin oil, when the starter initializes-- and surely will be worse now), we see
a .72VDC volt drop. And we're being conservative here.
Go to 0AWG and you see a .45VDC drop.
Go to 00AWG and you see a .34VDC drop. We seeing a trend here?
In short-- I have found your problem. Now go fix it.
I suspect your pump has a similar issue. Assuming a 15' run of 10AWG and leaving thick oil, cold temps, etc, out of the picture, you see a .3VDC drop. Run a piece of 4AWG to that puppy and you see a .077VDC drop. You read that right.
Overkill is ALWAYS the best way to go. My guesses are that you have undersized your mains cables somewhat, but undersized your ALT and pump cables even worse. Let's say you ran a piece of 10AWG to the battery, and it's obviously low. The Alt is trying to push 100A through it to recharge the battery, run the lighting, heater, etc. It's losing 3.08VDC. Yes, you read that right.
Here's what you need to do:
1) + AND - leads for battery reloc need to be replaced with 00AWG welding cable.
2) Piece of 8AWG from the ALT to the Starter Solenoid battery terminal. If you can run bigger than a 8AWG on your ALT terminal (ie: the lug will fit), do it.
3: Piece of 4AWG or better to the preluber, and make sure you're fusing it and running it through a relay so you don't fry whatever you're triggering it off of.
4) Of course, make sure you fuse all + leads at the appropriate amperage rating.
or, you could just move the darn battery back up front where it belongs. I forget, why did you move it to the back, again?
BTW- since you won't tell me what you used, and the lengths involved, I had to make some assumptions above. I used my experience with my Jeep Cherokee, Blazer, and the wife's Grand Cherokee when I installed high-amperage (350+Amp) Anderson Powerpole quick disconnects in the back of each vehicle (effectively the same as installing the battery in the back of the vehicle, owing to the currents involved). Just so you know
Gary ,way too thick oil will take a real long time to reach the oil pump like straight 40 in 0F temps is like sucking a thick milkshake through a straw ,a long time before lubrication..Using the proper viscosity oil even better to prove the point, a proper viscosity syn oil will reach the oil pump real quick like sucking milk through a straw so lubrication real quick. I think quick lubrication is very important but also take into consideration. The additives work best at certain temperatures,warm to hot "best temperature range" then the pistons when cold or room temperature are not yet round. Then what about the clearances ,cold start wear can be so complicated. Just drives me crazy.
And that's what I'm trying to help him achieve, thanks. What part of anything I said told him to ditch the preluber? None. Simply put, I am right there with him on the need for a preluber. Yes, need. If he's hearing less or no metal-to-metal clatter after using the preluber in these temps, it's the right thing to do. If I lived in that climate, I'd have installed prelubers years ago. As it is, I just installed mine last year. We don't have to worry about low temps.
The problems he's encountering stem from doing the job incorrectly, it's sounding like to me. IE: 2AWG cable- it's fine for a charging system that lives within 2' of the motor. But when you move the biggest piece of the charging system 15' from it's load, you've GOT to overbuild things.
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