Results are in for five more ATFs. MaxLife gets an Advisory.
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Tom NJ
Petroleum Quality Institute of America
Tom NJ
PQIA tests five ATFs - one gets Advisory
- Thread starter Tom NJ
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Thanks Tom. This will stir up some unwanted controversy.
Big deal, the viscosity at 100c is a little low... doesn't bother me one bit. Look at the additives it has versus the other ATF's! This fluid works and it works very well. No fear from me!
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
The viscosity spec for Dexron VI is lower than the viscosity spec for Dexron III.
I found this out AFTER I started using MaxLife ATF in my 4L60E, which died at around 175,000 miles, about 25,000 miles after I started using MaxLife ATF. Sure, the transmission had high mileage already and might have gone out anyway. Did the low viscosity fluid contribute to the transmission going out? Who knows.
Some people have asked whether Dexron VI can be used in a transmission spec'd for Dexron III. After my experience I would say, for me, the answer is no, not if the transmission in question already has high miles. Others have had positive experiences, and I think their positive experiences are just as valid as my negative experience. I'm just saying I won't use MaxLife ATF or any other Dexron VI product in an older transmission spec'd for Dexron III.
On the other hand, I had a good experience with the Napa Dexron III, which I used from around 100,000 to 150,000 miles.
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
The viscosity spec for Dexron VI is lower than the viscosity spec for Dexron III.
I found this out AFTER I started using MaxLife ATF in my 4L60E, which died at around 175,000 miles, about 25,000 miles after I started using MaxLife ATF. Sure, the transmission had high mileage already and might have gone out anyway. Did the low viscosity fluid contribute to the transmission going out? Who knows.
Some people have asked whether Dexron VI can be used in a transmission spec'd for Dexron III. After my experience I would say, for me, the answer is no, not if the transmission in question already has high miles. Others have had positive experiences, and I think their positive experiences are just as valid as my negative experience. I'm just saying I won't use MaxLife ATF or any other Dexron VI product in an older transmission spec'd for Dexron III.
On the other hand, I had a good experience with the Napa Dexron III, which I used from around 100,000 to 150,000 miles.
Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
The viscosity spec for Dexron VI is lower than the viscosity spec for Dexron III.
That's specifically what I was thinking when I speculated on incorrect product. But I don't know the Dex VI vis spec right off, so I don't know if this MaxLife looks like it or not.
At any rate, that's my big issue with the flat declaration that Dex VI is fully backward compatible to Dex III. I think there are many transmissions out there that would do better with another "backward compatible" Dexron relative like Mopar ATF+4 that is closer to the DexIII viscosity spec. The problem with it is that non-Chrysler transmissions might have a problem with the friction modifier package- although I suspect you could run an old TH350 or TH400 without a lockup clutch on it just like you can an A727 or A904.
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
The viscosity spec for Dexron VI is lower than the viscosity spec for Dexron III.
That's specifically what I was thinking when I speculated on incorrect product. But I don't know the Dex VI vis spec right off, so I don't know if this MaxLife looks like it or not.
At any rate, that's my big issue with the flat declaration that Dex VI is fully backward compatible to Dex III. I think there are many transmissions out there that would do better with another "backward compatible" Dexron relative like Mopar ATF+4 that is closer to the DexIII viscosity spec. The problem with it is that non-Chrysler transmissions might have a problem with the friction modifier package- although I suspect you could run an old TH350 or TH400 without a lockup clutch on it just like you can an A727 or A904.
Valvoline's own product data sheet lists 100C viscosity as 6.11cSt.
The MaxLife Dex/Merc viscosity is in the correct range for Dexron VI, which is one of the recommended applications for this fluid. It may have been more appropriate to compare MaxLife Dex/Merc with other Dexron VI fluids.
What is most interesting to me, however, is the amount of zinc in the MaxLife. 44 ppm is, if I'm not mistaken, exactly what OilChanger's sample had. Some, myself absolutely included, stated that MaxLife didn't have that much zinc in it. Assuming PQIA's sampling is accurate, and I have no reason to assume it's not, it demonstrates that MaxLife does indeed have a small amount of zinc in its formulation.
I have a feeling this thread will turn multi-page very quickly.
What is most interesting to me, however, is the amount of zinc in the MaxLife. 44 ppm is, if I'm not mistaken, exactly what OilChanger's sample had. Some, myself absolutely included, stated that MaxLife didn't have that much zinc in it. Assuming PQIA's sampling is accurate, and I have no reason to assume it's not, it demonstrates that MaxLife does indeed have a small amount of zinc in its formulation.
I have a feeling this thread will turn multi-page very quickly.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The MaxLife Dex/Merc viscosity is in the correct range for Dexron VI, which is one of the recommended applications for this fluid. It may have been more appropriate to compare MaxLife Dex/Merc with other Dexron VI fluids.
+1
I never used Maxlife and not a fanboy, but this advisory is nuts.
The MaxLife Dex/Merc viscosity is in the correct range for Dexron VI, which is one of the recommended applications for this fluid. It may have been more appropriate to compare MaxLife Dex/Merc with other Dexron VI fluids.
+1
I never used Maxlife and not a fanboy, but this advisory is nuts.
From my understanding, Dexron VI has a maximum viscosity of either 6.0 or 6.4 cSt at 100 deg C, with a minimum viscosity of 5.5 cSt at 100 deg C. (I've seen both 6.0 and 6.4 as a starting viscosity.)
From my understanding, Dexron III has a maximum viscosity of 7.5 cSt at 100 deg C, with the same minimum viscosity as Dexron VI, 5.5 cSt at 100 deg C.
PQIA is showing 6.8 cSt as a minimum; is this coming from one of the Dexron fluid specifications?
Valvoline's MaxLife Dex/Merc ATF is recommended for use in Dexron VI applications. Since GM itself recommends Dexron VI for all previous Dexron III applications, so too does Valvoline. I am not commenting on the applicability of Dexron VI in Dexron III applications, simply pointing out why Valvoline's MaxLife Dex/Merc will have a lower starting viscosity than a Dexron III fluid.
From my understanding, Dexron III has a maximum viscosity of 7.5 cSt at 100 deg C, with the same minimum viscosity as Dexron VI, 5.5 cSt at 100 deg C.
PQIA is showing 6.8 cSt as a minimum; is this coming from one of the Dexron fluid specifications?
Valvoline's MaxLife Dex/Merc ATF is recommended for use in Dexron VI applications. Since GM itself recommends Dexron VI for all previous Dexron III applications, so too does Valvoline. I am not commenting on the applicability of Dexron VI in Dexron III applications, simply pointing out why Valvoline's MaxLife Dex/Merc will have a lower starting viscosity than a Dexron III fluid.
Hey Oil Changer...........
Originally Posted By: racin4ds
... Look at the additives it has versus the other ATF's!.....
True that, very stout add pack in comparison to the others.
Is viscosity really an issue here in real world performance? Or, does ML just not conform to the 6.8 cSt min.
Oh, and thanks Tom!
... Look at the additives it has versus the other ATF's!.....
True that, very stout add pack in comparison to the others.
Is viscosity really an issue here in real world performance? Or, does ML just not conform to the 6.8 cSt min.
Oh, and thanks Tom!
For our Hondas I will ALWAYS use Honda ATF !!!
I wouldn't use Maxlife ATF in our Hondas if it was given to me free.
I wouldn't use Maxlife ATF in our Hondas if it was given to me free.
Quote:
Advisory: The front label on the Valvoline MAXLIFE ATF states “DEX/MERC”, and the back label states that it is recommended for use in Dexron III and Mercon (applications). The test results on this sample, however, show the viscosity @ 100°C of 5.9 cSt falls well below the OEM requirement of 6.8 cSt minimum. The issue with this product is the use of the term "Dex/Merc" on the front label, combined with its recommendation for use in older vehicles. Dex/Merc is a common industry term signifying compliance with Dexron III and Mercon, both of which are common specs for older vehicles. Therefore consumers may believe this product meets the specifications for Mercon, and it does not.
It seems the issue is with the Mercon spec, though as others have pointed out, there are issues with the Dex III / Dex IV specs as well.
Advisory: The front label on the Valvoline MAXLIFE ATF states “DEX/MERC”, and the back label states that it is recommended for use in Dexron III and Mercon (applications). The test results on this sample, however, show the viscosity @ 100°C of 5.9 cSt falls well below the OEM requirement of 6.8 cSt minimum. The issue with this product is the use of the term "Dex/Merc" on the front label, combined with its recommendation for use in older vehicles. Dex/Merc is a common industry term signifying compliance with Dexron III and Mercon, both of which are common specs for older vehicles. Therefore consumers may believe this product meets the specifications for Mercon, and it does not.
It seems the issue is with the Mercon spec, though as others have pointed out, there are issues with the Dex III / Dex IV specs as well.
My Subaru had Dex III from the factory, and I have the Maxlife Dex/Merc for the past 20k miles or so.
No problems so far, but these old 4EAT's are pretty stout (boring, but durable) overall.
Not sure what to make of this advisory, Subaru does not recommend Dex VI for the old Dex III transmission, but Dex VI makers say it is fine.
No problems so far, but these old 4EAT's are pretty stout (boring, but durable) overall.
Not sure what to make of this advisory, Subaru does not recommend Dex VI for the old Dex III transmission, but Dex VI makers say it is fine.
I believe Hokiefyd is correct, from what I see for specs on the net.
Dexron-VI
The fluid specification for Dexron-VI was introduced in 2005,and was first used as the GM factory-fill automatic transmission fluid for model year 2006. All Dexron-III licenses expired permanently at the end of 2006, and GM now supports only Dexron-VI fluids for use in their automatic transmissions.[3] Fluids asserted by their manufacturers to meet Dexron-III standards continue to be sold under abbreviated names such as Dex/Merc, but the licensing system no longer exists. These fluids are not regulated by GM.[4] Dexron VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior Dexron fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C for Dexron VI and 7.5 cSt for Dexron III), but the allowed viscosity loss during use (from shearing of the ATF) is lower for Dexron VI, resulting in the same lowest allowed final viscosity for both Dexron III and VI (5.5 cSt).[5] The intent of the lighter viscosity is to gain an incremental improvement in fuel economy by lessening parasitic drag in the transmission. Since Dexron VI is not allowed to thin out (lower its viscosity) as much as Dexron III during use, it requires the use of higher-quality, more shear-stable (thins less in use) base stocks (the base oils, to which additives are added to make ATF).[4]
Dexron-VI
The fluid specification for Dexron-VI was introduced in 2005,and was first used as the GM factory-fill automatic transmission fluid for model year 2006. All Dexron-III licenses expired permanently at the end of 2006, and GM now supports only Dexron-VI fluids for use in their automatic transmissions.[3] Fluids asserted by their manufacturers to meet Dexron-III standards continue to be sold under abbreviated names such as Dex/Merc, but the licensing system no longer exists. These fluids are not regulated by GM.[4] Dexron VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior Dexron fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C for Dexron VI and 7.5 cSt for Dexron III), but the allowed viscosity loss during use (from shearing of the ATF) is lower for Dexron VI, resulting in the same lowest allowed final viscosity for both Dexron III and VI (5.5 cSt).[5] The intent of the lighter viscosity is to gain an incremental improvement in fuel economy by lessening parasitic drag in the transmission. Since Dexron VI is not allowed to thin out (lower its viscosity) as much as Dexron III during use, it requires the use of higher-quality, more shear-stable (thins less in use) base stocks (the base oils, to which additives are added to make ATF).[4]
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
Read the details, 10 samples of each.
Even if a bad batch, what does that say for their QA? You could be getting a bad batch also. (I use Amsoil so its not me who would be getting a bad batch of MaxLife).
Ouch. A BITOG favorite gets a ding.
Bad batch? Bottle filled with incorrect product?
Read the details, 10 samples of each.
Even if a bad batch, what does that say for their QA? You could be getting a bad batch also. (I use Amsoil so its not me who would be getting a bad batch of MaxLife).
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