Pour points and Prostitution

Pennzoil motor oil
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Art_Vandelay

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Can the pour point of a synthetic motor oil be used to determine if it's Group IV(PAO)based?

Which Group III+ synthetics have a pour point below -50C?

Which Group IV(PAO) synthetics have a pour point above -50C?

The purchaser has the right to know which synthetic base they're buying. If knowledge of a conventional motor oil's base is available, why shouldn't synthetic's be available, at more than double the price?

I know a good many of you use Group III+ synthetics and love them. Some have even managed to purchase them at incredible sale prices, which is great and I'm sure that adds to the allure. I'm not trying to diminish your love for the product. Others have pointed out that a well made Group III+, with an excellent additive package, can outperform a Group IV oil. I think that is wonderful but not the point of this matter. It's good for the manufacturer that the word Synthetic* has expanded meaning in the United States but it's really not fair to the consumer.

PAO base stocks are more expensive than Group III+ base stocks to produce. PAO's also seem to have more dramatic properties than group III+ stock. Yet they sit side by side on a shelf, under the synthetic umbrella, often selling for the same price. How is that not a lie by omission?




*Synthetic in the context of European motor oil. What can and cannot be labeled as such.
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
PAO base stocks are more expensive than Group III+ base stocks to produce. PAO's also seem to have more dramatic properties than group III+ stock. Yet they sit side by side on a shelf, under the synthetic umbrella, often selling for the same price. How is that not a lie by omission?

A lie by omission? Where does it say that a manufacturer must specifically tell you what group base-stock their oil is made of? Where does it say that you have to charge less if it costs less to produce? Have you ever heard of "loss leaders" in supermarkets or one product subsidizing another in a manufacturer's product lineup?
 
Still doens't make it right..... I would like more clear info. Whether it's right or wrong I would still be willing to pay more for a PAO than a grpIII.
 
It's a business, haven't you heard. Haven't you seen what CEO makes? How can CEO get his 300 foot yacht, 2 billion dollar estate, and REAL hookers, for 10,000$ a night??? without a little profit??? Have you ever though about that --- and besides, what's a little white lie between friends anyway. Business, remember, free enterprise, dare I say something ?political??? I better not, or Helen will send this post into oblivion, and my account somewhere similar.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
PAO base stocks are more expensive than Group III+ base stocks to produce. PAO's also seem to have more dramatic properties than group III+ stock. Yet they sit side by side on a shelf, under the synthetic umbrella, often selling for the same price. How is that not a lie by omission?

A lie by omission? Where does it say that a manufacturer must specifically tell you what group base-stock their oil is made of? Where does it say that you have to charge less if it costs less to produce? Have you ever heard of "loss leaders" in supermarkets or one product subsidizing another in a manufacturer's product lineup?


Where does it say that a manufacturer must specifically tell you what group base-stock their oil is made of?
It doesn't say it anywhere I'm aware of. My point is it should. Why exactly do you think it shouldn't?

Where does it say that you have to charge less if it costs less to produce?
Where did I say they have to charge less? They can charge more if they want to.

Have you ever heard of "loss leaders" in supermarkets or one product subsidizing another in a manufacturer's product lineup?
What does that have to do with the right to know what Group the oil is based in?

Why do producers have to state ingredients in products?
Isn't that for the consumer's benefit?
Doesn't that imply entitlement?

You are speaking as though this is some sort of trade secret like the formula for Coca Cola. It's not.
 
Well, I agree with you that it would be nice to know, but the actual % content of various components is perceived by many as a trade secret. Hence, most companies will not tell you how many % of PAO (or whatever other group) the oil contains. And stating just that an oil contains PAO, or is PAO-based, is useless without knowing just how much of it is there.
 
We seem to get caught up in the base oil controversy a lot here at BITOG. Our Tribologist members point out time and time again that it is the blend of base stocks and additives that is important.

Pennzoil Conventional is a good example. Mostly grp II+ base stock, but with an additive pack that outperforms some grp III oils in used oil analysis.

It would be nice to have a labeling system for oil like the one for food, but I am not holding my breath
smirk2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay

Which Group III+ synthetics have a pour point below -50C?

Which Group IV(PAO) synthetics have a pour point above -50C?



What about these 2 questions I asked, does anyone know of an instance for either?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
PAO base stocks are more expensive than Group III+ base stocks to produce. PAO's also seem to have more dramatic properties than group III+ stock. Yet they sit side by side on a shelf, under the synthetic umbrella, often selling for the same price. How is that not a lie by omission?

A lie by omission? Where does it say that a manufacturer must specifically tell you what group base-stock their oil is made of? Where does it say that you have to charge less if it costs less to produce? Have you ever heard of "loss leaders" in supermarkets or one product subsidizing another in a manufacturer's product lineup?


I think they should have to say within a range. If the local gas pump can tell me roughly how much ethanol a gasoline contains, I think firmer definition of the type of synthetic is not out of the question...
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Which Group IV(PAO) synthetics have a pour point above -50C?

What is your precise definition of a "Group IV synthetic" motor oil?

FWIW, most of the Redline motor oil grades list -45C for pour point.
Amsoil ACD SAE 30/10W-30 lists -33C......(-36F)
 
I think that the angst comes from Mobil trying to hold the moral high ground in the early days of the synthetic wars, both in product description and the courts.

Then a few years later they (appear) to be playing in the gutter, using non specific language to (fail to) deny that they are in the gutter.

Annoys me.
 
Interesting questions, Art. One thing for certain, though, is that Pennzoil Conventional 5w30 seems like a real winner as mentioned by OMCWankel,

I understand that no conclusive determination can be made about an oil formula's composition without running tests in a well stocked lab with some very sophisticated equipment. However, I would imagine that there must a rubric for making an informed estimation.

I just wish one of the oil gods on this forum could enlighten the us mere mortals. Pasted below are some data for base stocks.

BASE STOCK-------- (AN-5)--(AN-13)--(PAO-5)--(PAO-100)--(ESTER-5)
Flash Point °C.----- 256----- 290-------240--------283--------234
Pour Point °C.------ -39----- -36------ -57------- -30------ Viscosity@ 40°C------ 29.0---109.0-----25.0--- 1240-------- 26.9
---------@100°C.-------4.7----12.4------5.1---- 100--------- 5.3
Viscosity Index------- 74---- 105------- 138----- 170------- 135

* Flash point data is for open cup test (ASTM D-92)
AN =Alkylated Naphthalene

Questions for the gods might be:

- How would one go about blending base stocks for 5W30 PA0 synthetic? Would it be easiest to use a PA0-10 and blend with AN-12 or an ester?
- How would one go about blending a 5W30 group III oil with same viscosity as the former at 100C? Would an AN carrier be better hear in terms of hydrolytic and oxidative stability when blended
with a Group III oil?
- How would using either an AN or an ester (of same or similar viscosity at 100C) as as the additive carrier affect properties such as pour point, flash point, and viscosity index for these blends?
 
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Which Group III+ synthetics have a pour point below -50C?
Currently, there are no OTC group III finished lubricants with pour points below -50C. While it is entirely possible to produce finished Group III lubes with pour points < -50C with special Group III base stocks, it would be more economical to use PA0s and esters for a finished lube designed for applications intended for use in extremely low temperatures (< -50C).

Quote:

Which Group IV(PAO) synthetics have a pour point above -50C?

While PAO base stocks have much lower pour points than their group III counterparts, the gap in pour points generally narrows in the finished lubes. PAO finished lubes can have higher pour points than their constituent PA0 base stocks. In contrast, finished Group III lubes respond very well with pour point depressants resulting in a product with much lower pour point than their constituent base fluids.

In sum, the only conclusion you can draw is that one can find OTC PAO finished lubes with pour points >-50C but no finished OTC Group III lube with a pour point

Quote:

The purchaser has the right to know which synthetic base they're buying. If knowledge of a conventional motor oil's base is available, why shouldn't synthetic's be available, at more than double the price?
I absolutely agree. Many people treat their vehicles better than they treat their own bodies. One could say that rather than their bodies, their "cars are their temples." They should have a right know to what's going into them. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires that the contents of things we ingest be made readily available to the consumer. Why shouldn't consumers have the same expectations of oil companies?

I am not questioning the performance of finished group III lubricants. No one here is planning an arctic exploration for which a finished PAO/ester lubricant would be absolutely necessary. However, there must be someone "in the know" who can look at some very basic data and provide a good estimation of a finished lube's constituent parts.

For example, most people can tell you that a clear liquid with a freezing point of 0 C is most certainly H20, etc...
 
Oil companies aren't selling a composition, they are selling a performance level. How they get to that performance level is their business and the formulations are proprietary. Businesses have a right to protect their technology, and we have a right to not buy their products if we disagree with how much they choose to tell us. Just a free market at work.

The comparison to food products isn't fair - we do not drink motor oils (although there are some BITOGers that I wonder about
grin2.gif
) The MSDS reveals all we need to know about the formulation from a health perspective.

Tom NJ
 
Guys, this "which base oil are they using today" discussion is not that interesting or informative. It's overall performance that matters, not base oil composition. Why not spend as much time on the cost and quality of the additives, which can dominate the performance aspects of the oil, or in the synergies between different base oils and the additives?
 
Originally Posted By: JAG

What is your precise definition of a "Group IV synthetic" motor oil?


An oil that uses PAO as its base stock. At a percentage that is in line with these:

- Mobil 1 0W-40
- German Castrol 0w30 Green (hopefully Gold too)
- Amsoil 0W-30

I haven't found the real world percentage of these PAO based synthetics do you happen to know the range?
 
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