Potentially 60BB of oil in Falklands waters.......

[Tempest]

Quote:
Seems like big "efficient" machinery wouldn't be much of an asset here.

I am quite sure that the people that made those terraces would have appreciated modern earth moving equipment...which is powered by oil.

Where is that picture taken?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I liked the argument from a few years ago (not Tempest, and for that I give credit) that our children will be smarter, so it doesn't really matter what we do, our future generations will be able to fix it.

That is flawed. You want to leave the best possible condition that you can for the next generation. Having an artificially devastated, top down economy is not helping the next generation.

The FACT is that technological improvements by private organizations is what has allowed our current standard of living and technology.

Spain has "invested" in green power more than probably any other nation as a portion of GDP and this has been so "successful" that they now have an unemployment rate of 19.5% which is estimated to increase to 22% this year.

THAT is the reality of a "green economy".

 

[MarkC]

Really?

http://greeneconomypost.com/debunk-spanish-study-green-jobs-1582.htm

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
I liked the argument from a few years ago (not Tempest, and for that I give credit) that our children will be smarter, so it doesn't really matter what we do, our future generations will be able to fix it.

That is flawed. You want to leave the best possible condition that you can for the next generation. Having an artificially devastated, top down economy is not helping the next generation.

The FACT is that technological improvements by private organizations is what has allowed our current standard of living and technology.

Spain has "invested" in green power more than probably any other nation as a portion of GDP and this has been so "successful" that they now have an unemployment rate of 19.5% which is estimated to increase to 22% this year.

THAT is the reality of a "green economy".



You keep equating economics to immutable realities. Economics is an arbitrary concept that divorces the physical realities from speculative notions.

In our current state of the art, it allows us to purchase/produce/consume in a manner that would otherwise not be possible. You somehow look at this as a good thing. Spending more than you earn is not good. If spending money that you really don't earn is buying stuff that you're really not paying for in equivalent worth, what's the point of a "better lifestyle" if it really can't be sustain perpetually? Just throw a party that's 100% assured to collapse when the real bill comes due?

The use of a non-renewal, high density energy component to enable the above foolish enterprise is a compound failure that is just waiting for enough time to pass to happen.

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: MarkC
Really?

http://greeneconomypost.com/debunk-spanish-study-green-jobs-1582.htm

Yes really. That is their unemployment. And Spain is slashing their subsidies to green power by 30%. Why would they be doing that if all of these subsidies were doing a great job?

And from your link:
"According to the United Nations" NOT a credible organization. And he tries to question the credibility of the Spanish author??

"Most economist (the same ones that said the economy was just fine in 2007) believe, and history has proven that public spending increases demand for resources, not decrease it. For example, after the Great Depression in the 1930’s spending to create roads, bridges and other infrastructure increased demand for labor, equipment and materials."
NOT CORRECT. The US economy didn't really kick in until WWII, and then it collapsed again right after. That is the history. More recent history, including Japan and our own, has shown his assumption to be false.

"While renewable energy spending might have prevented spending in other areas, DUH! the author does not explain how government spending prevented or discouraged industry from spending."
It's called dramatically higher energy costs! DUH! He claims that crowding out magically doesn't occur in Spain?? Of course it does.

"The majority of the public investment in renewable energy in the United states is going toward the private sector in the form of tax credits, loans and similar tools that are designed to encourage investment. For example, the U.S. is establishing a Clean Energy Investment Agency. So, how is that going to cause job loss and business retraction, when businesses are receiving assistance?"
My favorite. Just spend your way to prosperity! Sorry, wrong again:
Quote:
"The existence of an 800-pound gorilla putting massive capital behind select start-ups is sucking the air away from the rest of the venture-capital ecosystem," said Darryl Siry, former head of marketing at Tesla Motors Inc., a San Carlos, Calif., company that got a $365 million DOE loan in June to build high-end electric cars. "Being anointed by DOE has become everything for companies looking to move ahead."

And:
Quote:
We are caught in this blender of historically new forces, somewhere between the public and private worlds," said Bright's chief executive, John Waters. Without a government loan, private investors are reluctant to jump in


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126074549073889853.html

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Seems like big "efficient" machinery wouldn't be much of an asset here.

I am quite sure that the people that made those terraces would have appreciated modern earth moving equipment...which is powered by oil.

Where is that picture taken?

Asia? doesn't really matter anyways, I can't imagine even the most skilled heavy equipment operator could build anything close to as perfect as that... I guess they could rough it out but the critical touches to keep the whole thing from washing away during the rainy season are done by people.
It's a terribley inefficient way to grow rice in from an industrial agriculture view, but its infinetely sustainable...
200hp tractors burning fuel from 8000' in the ground, from 8,000 miles away, spreading fertilizer from 3000' in the ground, from 2000 miles away, so no one has to get dirt under their fingernails, to make a few guys in an office tower 2000 miles away from the field rich this quarter, doesn't sound to sustainable to me...

Something in middle would be good, planned out so we have some thought of what the planet will be like in a 1000 years, not 10 years or the next election, or next quarter...

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I can't imagine even the most skilled heavy equipment operator could build anything close to as perfect as that

Made with dynamite and power drills...70 years ago.

Quote:
planned out so we have some thought of what the planet will be like in a 1000 years

Do you have an example of successful long term, centralized planning?
I don't. And exactly who would be doing this 1000 year planning?

 

[MarkC]

So Tempest, or should I say Dr. No....what's your grand answer?
Do you even think we need to bother trying to avoid F'ing the place up?

 

[Tempest]

Messing up the place is what all of this "expert planning" has brought. The best way to make people and the environment better off is to make them wealthy.

This gives them the resources to develop and demand cleaner technology.

It's quite funny how the guy in your link admits that the US has had a much lower rate of unemployment than Spain (even Europe in general) but doesn't go into WHY that is. There are reasons.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
The best way to make people and the environment better off is to make them wealthy.


Okay ..make me wealthy. No central planning needed ..just make everyone wealthy. From the rice paddy worker ..the lower caste member in India ..the rickshaw driver in some 'hole somewhere ..

..all of us living in ivory towers due to "just doing it" by what design? Natural selection? That will make everyone wealthy? Forever and ever??


Oh, I think I read that wrong. You mean IF you're wealthy you'll keep YOUR environment clean. This much I can agree with.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
just make everyone wealthy

A people becomes wealthy doing productive things and finding better ways to do things...not by printing money.

Quote:
all of us living in ivory towers due to "just doing it" by what design? Natural selection? That will make everyone wealthy? Forever and ever??

Please tell me your plan for this Gary as I have never heard it.

A free people will always work to make their lives better, that is why the US has become the wealthiest nation on earth in record time. Central "planing" by a few elites that "know better" than the "stupid" general populace has proven to be disastrous throughout human history, without exception.

 

[MarkC]

As I thought. You have to be wealthy to avoid polluting and turning YOUR area into a sewer. What about everybody else's area?

You want to see a messed up place, visit parts of China and Eastern Europe, where they've either ignored environmental regulations or never bothered to have any.
Making everybody wealthy is not possible, as you should know.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
You want to see a messed up place, visit parts of China and Eastern Europe, where they've either ignored environmental regulations or never bothered to have any.

And what entity is in charge in these areas? Certainly not free market principals. Have you seen the mining conditions in the state run Chinese mines??

As you believe the general populace is too stupid make their own decisions, please tell me your plan on this topic, Mark.

Quote:
Making everybody wealthy is not possible, as you should know.

That's a very interesting theory you have there, considering people such as yourself were saying decades ago that people were supposed to starving by the million in the 70's and 80's. And instead, we have 3 times as many people on the planet and most of them have MUCH HIGHER standards of living than at the time those predictions were made.

Plus, China has raised ~400 million people out of dirt poor poverty by moving closer to free market principals just in the last 20 years or so.

It's amazing that people want to lower every person on earth to the lowest common denominator rather than raise people up, which history has shown to be very possible.

 

[Shannow]

tempest, you have previously stated that leaving desolate wastelands behind a strip mine is acceptable, as it is "their" land.

as to raising everybody to the US standard of living, is it even possible, given the finite nature of the Earth that we live in.

Would OUR system let that happen ?

Where is the debt going to come from that's fueling the US standard of living (after industrialisation and working extra hours were exhausted decades ago) ?

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
just make everyone wealthy

A people becomes wealthy doing productive things and finding better ways to do things...not by printing money.

Quote:
all of us living in ivory towers due to "just doing it" by what design? Natural selection? That will make everyone wealthy? Forever and ever??

Please tell me your plan for this Gary as I have never heard it.

A free people will always work to make their lives better, that is why the US has become the wealthiest nation on earth in record time. Central "planing" by a few elites that "know better" than the "stupid" general populace has proven to be disastrous throughout human history, without exception.


I have no such plan since I know it's impossible. YOU are the one who appears to have no plan, mechanism, modality to achieve it ..yet say that it can occur. It can't.

Give me the step by step process. I want everyone sipping cocktails in a mansion like Dr. Haas in Sarasota ..driving exotic cars and making multiple 6 figure incomes. Even the burger flippers at the local McDonald's.

 

[MarkC]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You want to see a messed up place, visit parts of China and Eastern Europe, where they've either ignored environmental regulations or never bothered to have any.

And what entity is in charge in these areas? Certainly not free market principals. Have you seen the mining conditions in the state run Chinese mines??

As you believe the general populace is too stupid make their own decisions, please tell me your plan on this topic, Mark.

Quote:
Making everybody wealthy is not possible, as you should know.

That's a very interesting theory you have there, considering people such as yourself were saying decades ago that people were supposed to starving by the million in the 70's and 80's. And instead, we have 3 times as many people on the planet and most of them have MUCH HIGHER standards of living than at the time those predictions were made.

Plus, China has raised ~400 million people out of dirt poor poverty by moving closer to free market principals just in the last 20 years or so.

It's amazing that people want to lower every person on earth to the lowest common denominator rather than raise people up, which history has shown to be very possible.


It doesn't matter what entity is in control of those places, they do what you advocate: get rid of (or never have in the first place) environmental regs.
Newsflash: there are many, many people on this planet who are starving as we sit here and type.
You need to get out more.
In 2006, almost 10 million children died before their 5th birthday due to undernourishment.

More than a billion people earn less than $1.24 a day. Are they wealthy?

 

[Gary Allan]

Some say the world will end in fire;
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
In 2006, almost 10 million children died before their 5th birthday due to undernourishment.

More than a billion people earn less than $1.24 a day. Are they wealthy?

Do they have access to free markets? I think note.

I assume that you donate all of your profits from your job to charity to be in parity with global averages? Same goes with energy consumption?

And I'll ask again, what is your plan to solve these problems?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
I have no such plan since I know it's impossible.

So you are here just to complain about the system that has allowed you your freedom and wealth? With NO alternatives?

Gray area thinking at it's height.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
empest, you have previously stated that leaving desolate wastelands behind a strip mine is acceptable, as it is "their" land.

If they own the land, do they? Buying up valuable land with resources on it and tearing it up devalues the land. If they want to take the hit, isn't it their call?
Quote:
as to raising everybody to the US standard of living, is it even possible, given the finite nature of the Earth that we live in.

Do you agree that most of the 6 billion people on this planet have higher standards of living now than the less than 2 billion prior as I have stated above? You refuse to deal with that fact.

I'll ask you again as well, what is your plan? You also think people are too stupid to make their own decisions.