Plumbing house repipe, copper or PEX?

[andyd]

In the early '90s whilst in between careers 2-3, I was a plumber's helper for awhile. He taught me a lot about plumbing with copper and silver solder. This gray plastic tubing was just coming into use and I used a 25' run to add a front sill cock in the crawlspace under the addition. 30+ yrs ago. So good, so far. The rest of the copper is my own work. I enjoyed plumbing,
PS, Most of the plumbing is located over a well drained dirt floor, so my learning the craft caused no damage.

 

[oilcandave]

A few notes on copper for residential plumbing. There are two common types of copper for residential plumbing, M and L.

Type L is medium weight and used most often for water lines in homes. Type M is thinner and is used underground or for light domestic water lines if local codes allow.
Many contractors use M to save money/ increase profits. Chemicals and even some minerals can and often do eat away at copper pipe, and if M was used, even more risk. Pin hole leaks can be common at random in copper pipe- ask me how I know.
Copper pipe is used to keep Union plumbers well employed, not because copper offers holistic benefits over PEX.
Chemical corrosion is probably the most common cause of pinhole leaks in copper pipes. This happens when water contains chemicals that eat away at the copper, causing it to deteriorate and form holes. The most common culprit is chlorine, which is added to public water supplies to kill bacteria.

Eight-page PDF which provides some insight on copper pipe corrosion:

https://copper.org/publications/pub_list/pdf/a4073.pdf

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Around here type M is for 30lbs heating. Not allowed for any domestic plumbing around here. There are about half of homes that have M installed for domestic use around here.

Copper will develop an oxide..copper sulfate..that protects the copper from further corrosion. If the copper is overflowed it strips away the protective oxide. Soon you will start to have green particles in the aireators and pinholes near fittings where there is more turbulence. Water quality varies a lot depending on location...acidic water and chlorine also not good for copper.

 

[John Galt]

I had a new radiator/baseboard heating system installed a year ago and it runs at 155-165F. The cold side in my house runs at 80 psig. They used this copper fitting or valve which combined an o-ring and compression fitting. They had battery operated tools of different sizes to make the compression, like big pliers. Each joint took about 5-10 seconds to make depending on the pipe diameter. It was clear why they liked this technology. All dry fitted and then make up the joints at the end.

I was there when they were installing it and they said it is all they will use on water or heating lines. If you specify something else, they require a hold harmless release form stating any future leaks are your responsibility after 2 years. These were guaranteed forever. I like forever.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

The only issue I've read regarding PEX has to do with plumbers who choose not to use the connectors suggested by the PEX manufacturer.

PexUniverse - PEX, Plumbing, Heating, HVAC Supplies

Understanding the advantages of various PEX tubing types. PEX-A, PEX-B, PEX-C tubing types. The terms PEX tubing and PEX tube have been used interchangeably, however all PEX manufacturers distinguish between the two by manufacturing to different diameters.

www.pexuniverse.com

I would also research class action lawsuit. Uponor was hit with a lawsuit in a bunch of states.

 

[burbguy82]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Pex A vs B? I have seen where the plastic taste is worse with A.

Pex A, in my experience is a waste of time. And its connection style is prone to bursting when freezing. Pex A has been around a long time, I used it 30 years ago in Las Vegas. The only advantage to Pex A and expansion fittings is water flow, all others are disadvantages. Use polymer crimp fittings, should you choose Pex.

 

[awguy]

I use a 14 stage water filter, couple thousand dollars, good for ten years. Keeps the whole plumbing system protected pretty well from corrosion and gets rid of much of the hard water we get. Then decide on the plumbing...

 

[Thermo1223]

I always thought the benefit of PEX was single line to each appliance IE no fittings just approved 90 bends. Then you run a header with a larger diameter feed. That is how it was in our one apartment. It is how I would want it done if possible.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-CM6-75PXA-PXV-3-4-PEX-Crimp-Copper-Manifold-w-1-2-PEX-Crimp-Ball-Valves-Lead-Free-6-Outlets?gad_source=1

 

[burbguy82]

I always thought the benefit of PEX was single line to each appliance IE no fittings just approved 90 bends. Then you run a header with a larger diameter feed. That is how it was in our one apartment. It is how I would want it done if possible.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bluefin-CM6-75PXA-PXV-3-4-PEX-Crimp-Copper-Manifold-w-1-2-PEX-Crimp-Ball-Valves-Lead-Free-6-Outlets?gad_source=1

It can be if that is the method you use. It is called "the home run method" It does however use a tremendous amount of material more than the typical "branch and trunk" method.

More times than not, the home run method is reserved for brand new construction, and requires a bunch of planning and space. The "no fitting" thing is way easier said than done, and is not realistic for this application, nor does it always happen that way.

 

[burbguy82]

I had a new radiator/baseboard heating system installed a year ago and it runs at 155-165F. The cold side in my house runs at 80 psig. They used this copper fitting or valve which combined an o-ring and compression fitting. They had battery operated tools of different sizes to make the compression, like big pliers. Each joint took about 5-10 seconds to make depending on the pipe diameter. It was clear why they liked this technology. All dry fitted and then make up the joints at the end.

I was there when they were installing it and they said it is all they will use on water or heating lines. If you specify something else, they require a hold harmless release form stating any future leaks are your responsibility after 2 years. These were guaranteed forever. I like forever.

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they looked like they took pride in their work, which is a big deal in the long run.

 

[oilcandave]

The Propress system uses orings to seal. A few years down the road if the joints get moved around..as in a repair or loose hanger..the hope is the orings will still seal. Myself and the other plumbers around here figure one might be able to solder the leaking joint if it is clean enough.

If using copper..like one said..just solder it and be done.

 

[burbguy82]

Myself and the other plumbers around here figure one might be able to solder the leaking joint if it is clean enough.

I have done that, but not soft solder, brazed. After a leak, the copper stains, and will not take.

Funny thing, these systems, that are made to make things easier, in many ways make them harder.... Propress still requires a clean cut, debur, sanding, no stress at the fitting, and so on.

 

[oilcandave]

In a spot where heat might be an issue would be a spot for Propress i guess...or where ya got to make a flyin connection..

 

[captainbeandip]

Propress still requires a clean cut, debur, sanding, no stress at the fitting, and so on.

Yeah, just like a road with a 55mph speed limit requires that no one drives faster than 55.

I put propress together without following any of those rules, and 99% of the time it works good enough to make it through my tail-light warranty.

 

[burbguy82]

Yeah, just like a road with a 55mph speed limit requires that no one drives faster than 55.

I put propress together without following any of those rules, and 99% of the time it works good enough to make it through my tail-light warranty.

i am with you. sometimes you just cant do it right

 

[wallyuwl]

So I'm going with clear or white PEX B for most of it, but some of it between the well and until the main shut off after the water softener will be copper pro press. $3300 for the whole house. I didn't talk about upsizing due to the crimp, but am not that worried about the necessity of upsizing.

Will be about right at $20k for a full bathroom remodel with Onyx stone, whole house repipe, and creating a 12x12 room in the basement with closet and electrical. And the contractor is reputable and does good work.

 

[burbguy82]

So I'm going with clear or white PEX B for most of it, but some of it between the well and until the main shut off after the water softener will be copper pro press. $3300 for the whole house. I didn't talk about upsizing due to the crimp, but am not that worried about the necessity of upsizing.

Will be about right at $20k for a full bathroom remodel with Onyx stone, whole house repipe, and creating a 12x12 room in the basement with closet and electrical. And the contractor is reputable and does good work.

between the well and softener, ask for a price on 1'' PVC.

 

[wallyuwl]

Why is it that you think the CPVC is needing replacing? I think it has a lifespan of 50-75 yrs.

I have heard a lot that it gets brittle and can break. One report after 11 years. So I assume real world average life is around 25 tears probably. My contractor, who is actually a good one, said it is likely close to end of life.

 

[wallyuwl]

I have seen problems with CPVC after about 15-20 years. It can become very brittle and easily break especially on hot water lines. I see a future class action lawsuit brewing here.

The hot water lines are all a darker shade. Not sure if due to the water or if they for some reason used a slightly different color.

 

[oilcandave]

Had several homes in the rural areas that had cpvc throughout. Also had indirect domestic water heater with no tempering valve that worked. The hot water over the years softened the cpvc and it had expanded so much no fittings would fit on the pipe without major surgery...maybe 10 years old..

 

[walterjay]

I have seen cpvc hot lines soften and become taffy like. On the other hand pex can handle 210 degree water with no ill effects. I have used it on heating lines where copper installation is difficult. I don't think that cpvc should ever be used in any application above 160 degrees.