Is the unformity of the pleat spacing in the filter medium a big deal? I've used Champ filters for years any cut many open and the only thing that gets my attention as a possible weakness in the construction is the uneven spacing of the pleats--it's nice and tight for a few inches and then becomes very widely spaced and then goes back to tightly spaced---does this matter other than giving a sloppy appearance? Does it make the mediaum more likely to rupture in the places where the pleats are very widely spaced? Thanks!
PLEAT SPACING UNIFORMITY
- Thread starter MADMIKE
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It certainly doesn't help, but unless it is severely uneven and under high stress I don't think it matters too much.
Uneven pleats might say something about how much thought and care went into the rest of the design and manufacturing too, though.
Uneven pleats might say something about how much thought and care went into the rest of the design and manufacturing too, though.
Been through this before.
Champ glues the two ends of the media together to prevent oil from by-pass around or under any "clip" or overlap of the two ends.
When they do this, the two ends of the media are seamed together...they go through a machine with rollers that pinches the two ends of the media together against the glue between the two pleats. It is the action of the rollers that allows for the extra gap between a couple pleats.
If you look at your cut open filter, inveritably you will see that the pleat spacing gap is by the pleats being sealed together.
Champ glues the two ends of the media together to prevent oil from by-pass around or under any "clip" or overlap of the two ends.
When they do this, the two ends of the media are seamed together...they go through a machine with rollers that pinches the two ends of the media together against the glue between the two pleats. It is the action of the rollers that allows for the extra gap between a couple pleats.
If you look at your cut open filter, inveritably you will see that the pleat spacing gap is by the pleats being sealed together.
Actually, there are huge gaps all all over the place in Champs cheaper line filters. This is where most of the media breaks I found occured. It seems that over time the media caves in due to stresses and poor media quality. Search for the threads from last summer where FG and myself fought this subject out.
Lubeowner---I remember you switched at that time from Champ to NAPA (wix) and have had no problems since. Have you ever seen any problems with the Purolators (or their derivatives like Motorcraft, Advanced Auto Parts, Powerflo, etc) that you've cut open? (I remember it was the Champs and Frams that had media tears but I can't remember if there were other brands) Thanks!
Lubeowner..How's Sherwood? Staying dry with all the flooding around there?
Madmike- I have not seen media tears and ruptures like the ones from Champs low end and Fram filters from any other filters run in normal service conditions (I consider 7500mi or less normal). There were a few very isolated instances of Purolators Group 7 filters with media problems, but that is a filter aimed at the installer market much like the Warner (Champions) we used to use. They have much less media that seems to be brittle and use dome end bypasses, also a thin can. They are nothing like the Premium Plus, Motorcraft, etc.
FG- It is actually sunny here today, but it has been raining steady though for about 2 months now.
FG- It is actually sunny here today, but it has been raining steady though for about 2 months now.
Pleat spacing is not all that important. It doesnt necessarily cause tears in the media, but it definately doesnt help matters. The problem generally occurs near the "clip" or wherever the two ends of the media are joined together. This is because the tooling has to get in there to "clip" the media together, causing the closest pleats to spread out. Uneven pleat spacing may also cause a slight decrease in capacity, but nothing major.
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For what it's worth, every filter media failure I've ever seen has been where the pleats were spaced far apart and the media was torn where the glue held the media in place.
I have seen this on quite a few different brands of filters and not exclusive to any one particular brand.
Fram, Purolator, Motorcraft and Mighty are a few that I've personally witnessed the media tearing where the pleats were glued to the end caps.
I've rarely seen media torn where the pleats were tightly spaced. Motorcraft has been the worst for this characteristic in my experience.
I have seen this on quite a few different brands of filters and not exclusive to any one particular brand.
Fram, Purolator, Motorcraft and Mighty are a few that I've personally witnessed the media tearing where the pleats were glued to the end caps.
I've rarely seen media torn where the pleats were tightly spaced. Motorcraft has been the worst for this characteristic in my experience.
Thanks for the info Lubeowner--I appreciate the opportunity to benefit from your experience with such a high volume of filter "autopsies". I only cut 'em open every now and then now because it's such a messy proposition. Keep the results coming!
I find this discussion of media ruptures very interesting. I am curious about any possible trend of these ruptures. Has anyone seen a trend of more ruptures in larger filters than smaller filters? What I am getting at is maybe the oversize filter might be more prone to this rupture as opposed to a smaller more rigid filter.
Not wanting to open up old discussions but...
Part of the problem that a number of us had with some of the pictures from about a year ago..was lack of information associated with the pictures in question.
Mileages were asked for, none specific were given.
Since that time when the world through this board was notified, many have cut open their own filters. Some have found "problems" with various brands of filters.
No further Warner filter pictures had been posted by individuals. And maybe 1 on another Champ built filter.
Where lubeowner and I disagree, in the main, is that he seems to think 7,500 miles is a routine oil change interval. Because apparently that's what his customers average before bringing their vehicles back to service.
I prefer to go by OEM guidelines which , domestically, mainly run 3,000 miles for in town driving. ( and the vehicles he had the problems with were mainly domestic which have the 3,000 mile change interval)
A "standard" filter designed around OEM specs may or may not last twice, two and a half times, or more as long as the recommended oil change interval ( 3,000 miles versus 7,500. That is 2 1/2 times longer). There are various factors which come into play when you extend your drain intervals.
Regardless of what an "uneducated" consumer does when they run their vehicle way over the recommended change interval, a filter is not bullet proof for every last condition. Your riding your luck, in other words..
If you want "cheap" filters, regardless of brand, you better be prepared to adhere as best as possible to recommended oil change intervals.
Part of the problem that a number of us had with some of the pictures from about a year ago..was lack of information associated with the pictures in question.
Mileages were asked for, none specific were given.
Since that time when the world through this board was notified, many have cut open their own filters. Some have found "problems" with various brands of filters.
No further Warner filter pictures had been posted by individuals. And maybe 1 on another Champ built filter.
Where lubeowner and I disagree, in the main, is that he seems to think 7,500 miles is a routine oil change interval. Because apparently that's what his customers average before bringing their vehicles back to service.
I prefer to go by OEM guidelines which , domestically, mainly run 3,000 miles for in town driving. ( and the vehicles he had the problems with were mainly domestic which have the 3,000 mile change interval)
A "standard" filter designed around OEM specs may or may not last twice, two and a half times, or more as long as the recommended oil change interval ( 3,000 miles versus 7,500. That is 2 1/2 times longer). There are various factors which come into play when you extend your drain intervals.
Regardless of what an "uneducated" consumer does when they run their vehicle way over the recommended change interval, a filter is not bullet proof for every last condition. Your riding your luck, in other words..
If you want "cheap" filters, regardless of brand, you better be prepared to adhere as best as possible to recommended oil change intervals.
To lubeowner: In your extensive experiences in inspecting Champion made oil filters, did you ever see any failed ST-2 filters? This is the WalMart ST replacement for the Motorcraft FL820s. I have always used the MC filter in my 96 T-Bird 4.6L, but am tempted to try a ST-2 because it is about 3/4" shorter in length than the FL820. As you probably know, the 4.6L T-Bird oil filter is extremely difficult to change - especially for me when on my back under the car. A shorter filter might ease the pain a little. Or if you or anyone else knows of a shorter "name brand" filter that fits the Ford 4.6 L V-8? BTW - I never go over 5000 mi before changing oil - so not much of a strain on the filter element.
Thanks for any help!
PMT, there's been a SuperTech ST-2 on my mom's 94 Grand Marquis since January, with 4 qts Pennzoil 10w30 + 2/3 to 3/4 qt of TropArtic 5w30 + ~10 oz of LC for the oil fill. Temps are modest enough here that 10w30 pumps just fine through our winters. Whenever I've started the Mercury there have been no engine tics or other oil-flow related noises at all. Still working fine, will probably get the oil changed next month to try to get her car back on a twice yearly, May & Nov oil change schedule.
As far as any other oil filters- I just went to the carport closet & now have before me the oil filters for the next 2 oil changes on the Merc. MotorCraft FL-820S, and a Purolator L24651(branded as a Havoline T-36, but it is externally identical to the Pur L24651). The Purolator looks about 1/4"-5/16" shorter than the Motorcraft. Using my genuine El Cheepo plastic "caliper", measuring from closed end crown to open end gasket sealing surface, I get:
MotorCraft FL-820S: 4 1/16" tall
Pur L24651: 3 13/16" tall,
so the Purolator is 1/4" shorter. Dunno if that's enough to help or not.
Also: I'm pretty sure that the SuperTech on the Merc now is a "pre-E-Core" design, & so it's larger/longer than the current E-Core ST-2's.
I looked up the Wix counterpart: 51372, they list height as 4.167", so it's a little longer/taller than the MotorCraft.
I salute your fortitude in changing the oil yourself. I have the Merc done at the local service station where they put it up on the lift, & understand the T-Birds were even worse about oil filter access.
If shorter helps, maybe the E-Core ST-2 is the thing to try.
Good luck!
As far as any other oil filters- I just went to the carport closet & now have before me the oil filters for the next 2 oil changes on the Merc. MotorCraft FL-820S, and a Purolator L24651(branded as a Havoline T-36, but it is externally identical to the Pur L24651). The Purolator looks about 1/4"-5/16" shorter than the Motorcraft. Using my genuine El Cheepo plastic "caliper", measuring from closed end crown to open end gasket sealing surface, I get:
MotorCraft FL-820S: 4 1/16" tall
Pur L24651: 3 13/16" tall,
so the Purolator is 1/4" shorter. Dunno if that's enough to help or not.
Also: I'm pretty sure that the SuperTech on the Merc now is a "pre-E-Core" design, & so it's larger/longer than the current E-Core ST-2's.
I looked up the Wix counterpart: 51372, they list height as 4.167", so it's a little longer/taller than the MotorCraft.
I salute your fortitude in changing the oil yourself. I have the Merc done at the local service station where they put it up on the lift, & understand the T-Birds were even worse about oil filter access.
Good luck!
Stuart - thanks for the help and all the measurements you made. Looks like no one else is going to reply. Which probably means that there are no other "short" filter options for the Ford 4.6 L engine than the E-Core ST-2.quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Hughes:
PMT, there's been a SuperTech ST-2 on my mom's 94 Grand Marquis since January, with 4 qts Pennzoil 10w30 + 2/3 to 3/4 qt of TropArtic 5w30 + ~10 oz of LC for the oil fill. Temps are modest enough here that 10w30 pumps just fine through our winters. Whenever I've started the Mercury there have been no engine tics or other oil-flow related noises at all. Still working fine, will probably get the oil changed next month to try to get her car back on a twice yearly, May & Nov oil change schedule.
As far as any other oil filters- I just went to the carport closet & now have before me the oil filters for the next 2 oil changes on the Merc. MotorCraft FL-820S, and a Purolator L24651(branded as a Havoline T-36, but it is externally identical to the Pur L24651). The Purolator looks about 1/4"-5/16" shorter than the Motorcraft. Using my genuine El Cheepo plastic "caliper", measuring from closed end crown to open end gasket sealing surface, I get:
MotorCraft FL-820S: 4 1/16" tall
Pur L24651: 3 13/16" tall,
so the Purolator is 1/4" shorter. Dunno if that's enough to help or not.
Also: I'm pretty sure that the SuperTech on the Merc now is a "pre-E-Core" design, & so it's larger/longer than the current E-Core ST-2's.
I looked up the Wix counterpart: 51372, they list height as 4.167", so it's a little longer/taller than the MotorCraft.
I salute your fortitude in changing the oil yourself. I have the Merc done at the local service station where they put it up on the lift, & understand the T-Birds were even worse about oil filter access.If shorter helps, maybe the E-Core ST-2 is the thing to try.
Good luck!
This was my second attempt at asking this question on BITOG, and the first one had similar results.
So my options are probably only two: 1) Take my T-Bird to my local mechanic and let him change the oil and filter. I really hate this option since no one other than I have changed the oil on any of my vehicles since I was about 16 years old. 2) Try the ST-2 filter and see if the shorter length produces any significant decrease in the difficulty in installation. If so, then obsess about how this filter of "questionable" quality is ruining my engine.
I don't want to get the Champion filter Pro and Con argument going again, but there does appear to be some legitimate concern by others about the quality of current Champion filters.
That's why my original question covered only ST-2 quality - hoping that maybe this high volume, large diameter filter might be somewhat immune from the problems described here on some of the other Champion part numbers. Probably unrealistic, wishful thinking on my part.
Thanks again for the help.
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