Please help me with the selection of an "MTF"

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My concerns do relate to my '17 Mazda6, yes. OEM spec'd fluid - is simply 75W-80 GL-4. They do not say any more than that.

Having said this, Mazda does offer the following:

https://imgur.com/a/PDCoi This leads to a shot of the front of the 1 liter Mazda lube bottle, and the rear of same.

I cannot seem to find out whether this is a semi-or a full-synthetic. The rear of the bottle does say synthetic.

Nowhere can I seem to find out what the kinematic viscosity is at 100C and 40C.

As to whether I would impact waranty... well, I would think it would be hard to prove that the wrong lube is in there. Not saying I would do this, but it would be easy enough to drop out the old lube and put in new OEM approved lube. Also, I am somewhat of the mind that warranties are held out to be better or more important than they really are. If something screwed up in my transaxle big time, I am not that sure I would let anyone muck with it. I have a workshop manual, I would get a Harbor Freight 20T press (with arbor plates), and I would get the necessary bearing splitters and would work with a machinist to make up the necessary tubular press fixtures. I guess I am at a place in life where I have alternative vehicles, and I would do the repair myself.

I do agree that I need about 10,000 miles on the transaxle to really pronounce the synchro's duds... I am, as time goes on, learning the idiosyncrasies of the 'box... and learning how to make it work for me. Slightly delaying the shift action, NOT double-clutching, increasingly works. When I really want to go, I either do accurately double-clutch, revving it to 3500 in first, or sometimes, I with mimimal clutch-slipping, start in second. Part of the trouble, here, also is that first gear is so, so granny-geared... Any rednecks on your tail threaten to bang into you as you shift so early-on, due to gearing.

Thank you for your interest in responding.
 
Also, the early-on changeouts of MTF are opportune, as wear-in materials... silvery-shiny bits likely will be evident when first dropping the MTF. Wanna keep that wear-in debris away from the bearing races lol.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
It the transmission does spec a GL-4 75W80, then a 10 cSt@100C fluid is most likely the proper viscosity so the Redline

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=45&pcid=7

or the Amsoil

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2080.pdf

or the GM synchromesh friction modified fluids


would be the correct fluids.


Based on your response, MolaKule, it appears that you have somewhat keyed-on to the viscosity, i.e. the cold / hot viscosities of 75W-80. Re the suggestion of Synchromesh type fluids, is it fair to say that they do not derive their anti-wear properties from Phosphorus or from Sulfur (P-S), i.e. they are not GL-4 P-S imbued to any degree? Assumedly then they have ZDDP (?? sorry, my technical re tribology is poor lol). Are you suggesting that you can get your AW performance either way, and it will not in either case cause transaxle harm...? The Mazda C66M-R 'box does not run the speed gears on needle bearings... rather, they use oiling funnels / troughs and run the speed gears on splined plain shafts, each with an oiling hole radially oriented to cater for lubrication. I would wonder if that type of design prefers a P-S type anti-wear, versus other chemicals?

Thx for your answer.
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Never seen Redline MTL bashed like that ... have it in my transfer case now in a GM synchromesh application...
What was the bore wear comparison between RL and M1 related to?


Apparently the fellow who made that post in the AlfaBB forum had spent some time maintaining Hewland (dog-box) transaxle (assumedly mid-engine, likely open-wheel) racecars for a number of clients. He commented on bore-wear and other engine-internals wear...(regarding the Redline versus Mobil1 engine oils) and he also commented on the ring and pinion wear on the Hewlands running Redline MTF's versus Mobil1 MTF. It appears to me that the Hewland box, formulated originally around flipped-over VW magnesium cased transaxles - does have an R & P in it... and when racing these, I think one has to have adequate Phosphorus and Sulphur EP-Extreme Pressure lubricant formulations in the MTF. Not sure if the individual making this post is complaining about Redline's MTF, or by comparison, some other Redlines GL-5 lubricant.
 
Originally Posted By: Cdn17Sport6MT
Has anyone actually done a UOA on Redline MTF - to see whether its Anti-Wear (AW) qualities are adequate?


Yes, and they are more than sufficient.
 
Originally Posted By: Cdn17Sport6MT


Based on your response, MolaKule, it appears that you have somewhat keyed-on to the viscosity, i.e. the cold / hot viscosities of 75W-80. Re the suggestion of Synchromesh type fluids, is it fair to say that they do not derive their anti-wear properties from Phosphorus or from Sulfur (P-S), i.e. they are not GL-4 P-S imbued to any degree? Assumedly then they have ZDDP (?? sorry, my technical re tribology is poor lol). Are you suggesting that you can get your AW performance either way, and it will not in either case cause transaxle harm...? The Mazda C66M-R 'box does not run the speed gears on needle bearings... rather, they use oiling funnels / troughs and run the speed gears on splined plain shafts, each with an oiling hole radially oriented to cater for lubrication. I would wonder if that type of design prefers a P-S type anti-wear, versus other chemicals?

Thx for your answer.


Quote:
Gearing: Most gear types in manual transmissions are of the helical type, which because of the cut, reduce noise and vibration. Due to their angular cut, thrust loads are transmitted to the shafts on which they reside. Lubricant effects: Being in constant mesh, they are dipping in the oil bath and slinging the oil up to the shifter assembly. Since they transmit torque, they must have an anti-wear/Extreme Pressure additive in the lubricant in order to reduce wear. The slipping and rolling action of the gear teeth causes localized high pressures and heating. The anti-wear/Extreme Pressure additive forms a protective but complex ferrous film at the contact surface to protect from galling and other wear mechanisms.

Other components such as thrust washers and shims may also need cooling, lubricant film, and anti-wear additives as well.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...sio#Post3992970


The older PI packages contained an Anti-Wear additive for cars and light truck MT transmissions that used primarily a ZDDP treatment with an added sulferized (and buffered) ester compound.

Recently in the last two years, for MT Anti-Wear, we have switched to a multi-function Phosphate compound with some ZDDP for most MT formulations.

P-S compounds are EP additives relegated to hypoid differential lubes.
 
Last edited:
Out of MTFs I've tried in a 6sp manual Wrangler 2013 I would rate them as follows from better to worse in terms of smoothness of shifting,


Amsoil MTF (5W30) > Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 >= Amsoil MTG (75W90) >> FF (Pennzoil Synchromesh)
 
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Out of MTFs I've tried in a 6sp manual Wrangler 2013 I would rate them as follows from better to worse in terms of smoothness of shifting,


Amsoil MTF (5W30) > Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 >= Amsoil MTG (75W90) >> FF (Pennzoil Synchromesh)


It sounds as if your Wrangler prefers the 10 cSt@100C (SAE 75W80) (API 5W30) fluids.

Sometimes one has to experiment with a fluid of the nearest viscosity to the factor spec to see what works best.

Some have reported good shifting with the GM/ACDELCO friction modified fluids as well.

Here is a list of fluids that fit within the 10 cSt@100C (SAE 75W80) (API 5W30) range:


Redline MTL 75W80

Amsoil MTF

GM Synchromesh’s

Volvo MTF 645

Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF

Motylgear 75W-80
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: davison0976
Out of MTFs I've tried in a 6sp manual Wrangler 2013 I would rate them as follows from better to worse in terms of smoothness of shifting,


Amsoil MTF (5W30) > Redline MTL 75W80 GL-4 >= Amsoil MTG (75W90) >> FF (Pennzoil Synchromesh)


It sounds as if your Wrangler prefers the 10 cSt@100C (SAE 75W80) (API 5W30) fluids.

Sometimes one has to experiment with a fluid of the nearest viscosity to the factor spec to see what works best.

Some have reported good shifting with the GM/ACDELCO friction modified fluids as well.

Here is a list of fluids that fit within the 10 cSt@100C (SAE 75W80) (API 5W30) range:


Redline MTL 75W80

Amsoil MTF

GM Synchromesh’s

Volvo MTF 645

Fuchs TITAN SINTOFLUID SAE 75W-80 synthetic MTF (Carries a GL-5 rating as well)

Lodexol (Morris Lubricants) MTF

Motylgear 75W-80





Much appreciate the list as I was looking for more readily available alternatives. Perhaps it will worth checking out GM and Volvo dealerships for availability/price for the next change interval.
 
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