PGO X-hot 150, G-MAX 200 scooter, GY6, 3000km OCI Q8 F1 vs 300v2 vs M1 v-twin

Messages
15
Location
Hong Kong
This post will be posted in my personal blog as well.
The blackstone reports will be uploaded at the bottom.

Coronavirus made China and Taiwan under the international spotlight. Whatever China says, I can tell you Taiwanese products are almost always better quality than Chinese products. Now I am sharing with you the oil analysis of my Taiwanese scooters used in Hong Kong, mainly the 2012 PGO X-hot 150.

A little introduction. The X-hot 150 had a rebuilt engine and already ran 3,654km when I submitted the 1st sample. (previous owner never changed oil, broke a valve while riding, trashing the engine. Rebuilt by shop using brand new: cylinder head, camshaft, valves, block, crankshaft, piston). It is an air-cooled, single cylinder, fuel-injected, single overhead cam, roller at the end of rocker arm (sort of a roller tappet), 4-valve engine (unlike the Chinese GY6 engine, which is 2-valve, old style rocker arm without roller). PGO states that the piston is made with a special “NASA” aluminum alloy. The X-hot 150 has NO OIL FILTER. I use it to commute to/from work, a total of 112km per day (56km one way). It consist of 80% 70+km/h roads and 20% 50km/h roads. Most of the time, i keep my speed at 80km/h actual GPS speed, which is about 7000rpm.

The owner’s manual stated an oil change interval of 1,000km (I think the manufacturer’s view of small scooter usage in Asia is for city runabout, stop and go traffic, severe usage. But my case is long distance travel) . If I follow this OCI, i’ll be changing the 0.8L oil every 9 days, which will drain my money very quickly. My goal is to see how long i could acceptably run the oil, and ultimately settled for 3,000km for this test. I will also compare the Q8 F1 10W-50, Motul 300v2 10w-50 motorcycle oil and grey imported US market Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50 motorcycle oil.
Code:
X-hot 150
              V-twin    300v2       Q8 F1     D400+Q8 F1
                4th      3rd         2nd       1st
KM on Oil     3,124     3,006       3,032      1,470
KM on Unit   12,817     18,388      6,687      3,654
Sample Date2020/07/18 2020/06/04 2020/03/04 2020/01/06

Aluminum      5           4           4          5
Chromium      1           1           1          1
Iron         25          23          27         24
Copper       52          89          34          5
Lead          0           1           0          0
Tin           1           0           1          0
Molybdenum   72           5          13         46
Nickel        0           0           0          0
Manganese     0           1           1          1
Silver       37          78          39         12
Titanium      0           0           0          0
Potassium     0           1           2          2
Boron       192         107          78         41
Silicon       9           8           7          7
Sodium        5           5           4          5
Calcium    2575        2645        2919       1675
Magnesium    27          60         175        678
Phosphorus 1210        1048         961       1033
Zinc       1470        1275        1197       1186
Barium        0           0           0          1
[email protected]  105.2        85.4        69.0       64.7
[email protected]  21.56       16.85        12.7      11.52
Flashpt F   480         445         430        430
Fuel%      <0.5        <0.5        <0.5       <0.5
Antifreeze%
Insolubles% 0.1         0.1         0.1        0.1
TBN         6.8         7.9         7.3        7.6
The oil intervals, and different brands I used on the X-hot 150
I purposely chose 50 oils for this test for consistency.

1st sample: 1,470km, 500ml Delo 400 15W-40 mixed with 300ml Q8 F1 10W-50

Blackstone Comments: It looks like this engine is doing well. Of the metals, only silver read a bit high - we're not sure where it's from though. It can be a bearing metal in some engines. But if this engine runs well with no unusual noises, then maybe a bit more silver could be the norm. It might also just be lingering wear-in since this is a pretty low-km engine. No contamination showed up. The viscosity is a bit low for 10W/50 oil or 15W/40 oil, probably from normal shearing since we didn't find any measurable fuel. The 7.6 TBN shows plenty of active additive left. Try about 3,000 km.

2nd sample: 3,032km, 800ml Q8 F1 10W-50
Blackstone Comments: Most metals are holding pretty steady compared to last time. Copper and silver are showing some jumps, but this engine is still young, and those increases may just reflect more wear-in that's accumulated during this longer interval. At the very least, we expect copper to drop back in the future. It's too early to tell where silver should land since we're still building averages for this kind of engine. No harmful contamination was detected, and the TBN is going strong at 7.3. The low viscosity isn't problematic. Just check back in 4,000-5,000 km.

3rd sample: 3,006km 800ml Motul 300V2 4T factory line 10W-50 motorcycle oil
Blackstone Comments: Copper and silver increased, which is notable since this was another ~3,000-km run. Ideally, metals would at least hold steady. The viscosity was normal and we didn't find harmful contamination, so it's hard to say exactly why metals went up. They could show a problem, so listen for unusual noise. If the engine runs well, then check back in another 2,000 kilometers to monitor. The TBN shows active additive to spare, but longer oil changes probably aren't the best idea until metals decrease or at least maintain a reasonable level of consistency.

4th sample: 3,124km 800ml Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50 motorcycle oil
Blackstone Comments: These are encouraging results. It's true copper and silver are high, but the levels are much improved. Hopefully the increased wear in the last report was just due to harder use or a change in operation. We certainly won't suspect a problem if the engine runs well and metals are stable from here. Try this interval again for a good comparison. The viscosity was pretty thick, but not as a result of contamination and the 6.8 TBN shows plenty of active additive to spare. The improved wear is encouraging and with any luck we'll find more of the same next time.
 

jon_a_127

Thread starter
Messages
15
Location
Hong Kong
Comparing 1st sample of both bikes 1,470km X-hot 150 and 1,526km G-MAX 200

For the 1st and 2nd sample which uses Q8 F1 10W-50 oil, to make it more interesting, i bring in my other 2008 PGO G-Max 200 scooter UOA for comparison because it was being used in the same commute, uses the exact same Q8 F1 oil and they are the same motorcycle brand. Although the G-max 200 is a different model bike/engine to the X-hot 150, the G-max 200 engine should be similar to the X-hot 150. The G-MAX engine is air cooled, single cylinder, carburetted, single overhead cam, 2-valve and has the same “NASA” material made piston, but it HAS AN OIL FILTER whereas the X-hot hasn’t. The G-MAX has 42,195km on the clock with this oil sample. Ever since I owned it from 14,950km back in year 2015, it always had 1,000-1,300km OCI.

X-hot 150 has 500ml Delo 400 15W-40 mixed with 300ml Q8 F1 10W-50
G-Max 200 has 800ml of pure Q8 F1 10W-50


Code:
            X-hot 150     G-Max 200
KM on Oil     1,470         1,526
KM on Unit    3,654        42,195
Sample Date2020/01/06    2019/08/31

Aluminum      5             5
Chromium      1             1
Iron         24             6
Copper        5             2
Lead          0             0
Tin           0             0
Molybdenum   46             9
Nickel        0             0
Manganese     1             0
Silver       12             0
Titanium      0             0
Potassium     2             0
Boron        41            73
Silicon       7             8
Sodium        5             7
Calcium    1675          2989
Magnesium   678            15
Phosphorus 1033           993
Zinc       1186          1093
Barium       1              0
[email protected]   64.7          68.2
[email protected]   11.52        12.48
Flashpt F  430            410
Fuel%      <0.5          <0.5
Antifreeze%                 0
Insolubles% 0.1           0.2
TBN         7.6           8.3
Copper numbers for both bikes were same BUT X-HOT’s iron, silver were way higher. The overall wear on the G-MAX 200 oil was exceedingly low compared to the X-HOT 150 sample. I understand x-hot has no oil filter but g-max has oil filter, that might have reduced the wear metals on the g-max but still doesn’t explain the high jump of the silver on the x-hot. The G-max has virtually no silver. Maybe they aren’t as similar as i thought? Moly, Magnesium as oil additive are also higher on the X-hot and that’s probably due to the mix of Delo 400. The Viscosity of both bikes can’t directly compare because of x-hot’s oil cocktail which made it somewhere in the mid 40 when new. But the viscosity numbers were surprisingly close on both bikes (X-hot 11.52cSt vs G-max 12.48cSt which means both are in the 30 zone according to bitog viscosity chart). Maybe the x-hot’s Delo 400 15W-40 retained viscosity better? Maybe the G-max runs hotter, shearing the oil more?


My comments on x-hot 2nd sample 3,032km:
Code:
X-hot 150
              V-twin    300v2       Q8 F1     D400+Q8 F1
                4th      3rd         2nd       1st
KM on Oil     3,124     3,006       3,032      1,470
KM on Unit   12,817     18,388      6,687      3,654
Sample Date2020/07/18 2020/06/04 2020/03/04 2020/01/06

Aluminum      5           4           4          5
Chromium      1           1           1          1
Iron         25          23          27         24
Copper       52          89          34          5
Lead          0           1           0          0
Tin           1           0           1          0
Molybdenum   72           5          13         46
Nickel        0           0           0          0
Manganese     0           1           1          1
Silver       37          78          39         12
Titanium      0           0           0          0
Potassium     0           1           2          2
Boron       192         107          78         41
Silicon       9           8           7          7
Sodium        5           5           4          5
Calcium    2575        2645        2919       1675
Magnesium    27          60         175        678
Phosphorus 1210        1048         961       1033
Zinc       1470        1275        1197       1186
Barium        0           0           0          1
[email protected]  105.2        85.4        69.0       64.7
[email protected]  21.56       16.85        12.7      11.52
Flashpt F   480         445         430        430
Fuel%      <0.5        <0.5        <0.5       <0.5
Antifreeze%
Insolubles% 0.1         0.1         0.1        0.1
TBN         6.8         7.9         7.3        7.6
Q8 F1 10W-50 is the flagship car oil of Q8. The viscosity dropped as expected, just like all the other oils used in a motorcycle. Copper and silver made the most jump from the 1st sample which made me a little uncomfortable but blackstone said wear was acceptable. I have no idea where silver is coming from.
 

jon_a_127

Thread starter
Messages
15
Location
Hong Kong
My comments on Q8 F1 10W-50 on both bikes.
Code:
            x-hot 150   G-max 200
KM on Oil     3,032      1,526
KM on Unit    6,687      42,195
Sample Date 2020/03/04 2019/08/31

Aluminum        4          5
Chromium        1          1
Iron            27         6
Copper          34         2
Lead            0          0
Tin             1          0
Molybdenum      13         9
Nickel          0          0
Manganese       1          0
Silver          39         0
Titanium        0          0
Potassium       2          0
Boron           78         73
Silicon         7          8
Sodium          4          7
Calcium         2919       2989
Magnesium       175        15
Phosphorus      961        993
Zinc            1197       1093
Barium          0          0
[email protected]        69.0       68.2
[email protected]        12.7      12.48
Flashpt F       430        410
Fuel%           <0.5       <0.5
Antifreeze%
Insolubles%     0.1        0.2
TBN             7.3        8.3
I compare 2nd sample 3,032km x-hot 150 VS 1,526km G-max 200: Both had the Q8 F1 oil, but X-hot has double the distance on the oil over the G-Max. What’s interesting was that the Viscosity of both bikes were about the same (X-hot 12.7cSt vs G-max 12.48cSt which puts the X-hot into the 40 while the G-Max is in high 30 near borderline 40). This again supports the fact that G-Max shears oil a bit more. The additives Zinc, Phosphorus, Calcium, Sodium, Silicon, Boron, Molybdenum are about the same. But Magnesium was a lot higher in the X-hot 175ppm vs G-Max 15ppm, that might be due to the small traces of Delo 400.

My comments on x-hot 3rd sample 3,006km Motul 300V2 4T factory line 10W-50:
Code:
X-hot 150
              V-twin    300v2       Q8 F1     D400+Q8 F1
                4th      3rd         2nd       1st
KM on Oil     3,124     3,006       3,032      1,470
KM on Unit   12,817     18,388      6,687      3,654
Sample Date2020/07/18 2020/06/04 2020/03/04 2020/01/06

Aluminum      5           4           4          5
Chromium      1           1           1          1
Iron         25          23          27         24
Copper       52          89          34          5
Lead          0           1           0          0
Tin           1           0           1          0
Molybdenum   72           5          13         46
Nickel        0           0           0          0
Manganese     0           1           1          1
Silver       37          78          39         12
Titanium      0           0           0          0
Potassium     0           1           2          2
Boron       192         107          78         41
Silicon       9           8           7          7
Sodium        5           5           4          5
Calcium    2575        2645        2919       1675
Magnesium    27          60         175        678
Phosphorus 1210        1048         961       1033
Zinc       1470        1275        1197       1186
Barium        0           0           0          1
[email protected]  105.2        85.4        69.0       64.7
[email protected]  21.56       16.85        12.7      11.52
Flashpt F   480         445         430        430
Fuel%      <0.5        <0.5        <0.5       <0.5
Antifreeze%
Insolubles% 0.1         0.1         0.1        0.1
TBN         6.8         7.9         7.3        7.6
Wow, where should i start? I didn’t expect the wear for copper and silver to be that high with this oil, as this is Motul’s best. With this oil sample, i didn’t ride the bike drastically different from other oil samples, just the same usage pattern. I am thinking maybe there’s some anomaly in the lab testing this oil? Some strange statistical deviation? Is this oil really that ****/not suitable for my usage? During this oil sample, my final drive bearings were very noisy, vibrating, had some resistance. The CVT belt was worn below the spec, causing my gear ratio to go up, my 80km/h cruising rpm went from 7000rpm to 7800rpm. Could this sustained high rpm, higher load caused the spike in Copper and Silver?
Apart from copper and silver, the other metals such as aluminum, iron, seem to be roughly the same as the other samples, and appear to be reasonable compared to the 1st 1,470km sample. Boron as an oil additive was 2nd highest among all samples, but Molybdenum was the least among all the samples. One thing good about this oil, it retained viscosity very well at 16.85cSt which is what a 50 oil should be, meaning unlike other oils i’ve used, it didn’t shear much at all (motul data sheet said 17.7cSt when new) Flashpoint also retained at a high 445. That is why i didn’t understand why the Copper and Silver was so high when the rest was about same as other oils and yet viscosity, flashpoint, TBN are the best performing among other oils. This is supposed to be a very good oil.

My comment on x-hot 4th sample 3,124km Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50:
Code:
X-hot 150
              V-twin    300v2       Q8 F1     D400+Q8 F1
                4th      3rd         2nd       1st
KM on Oil     3,124     3,006       3,032      1,470
KM on Unit   12,817     18,388      6,687      3,654
Sample Date2020/07/18 2020/06/04 2020/03/04 2020/01/06

Aluminum      5           4           4          5
Chromium      1           1           1          1
Iron         25          23          27         24
Copper       52          89          34          5
Lead          0           1           0          0
Tin           1           0           1          0
Molybdenum   72           5          13         46
Nickel        0           0           0          0
Manganese     0           1           1          1
Silver       37          78          39         12
Titanium      0           0           0          0
Potassium     0           1           2          2
Boron       192         107          78         41
Silicon       9           8           7          7
Sodium        5           5           4          5
Calcium    2575        2645        2919       1675
Magnesium    27          60         175        678
Phosphorus 1210        1048         961       1033
Zinc       1470        1275        1197       1186
Barium        0           0           0          1
[email protected]  105.2        85.4        69.0       64.7
[email protected]  21.56       16.85        12.7      11.52
Flashpt F   480         445         430        430
Fuel%      <0.5        <0.5        <0.5       <0.5
Antifreeze%
Insolubles% 0.1         0.1         0.1        0.1
TBN         6.8         7.9         7.3        7.6
At the beginning of this oil interval, I took this bike to the repair shop to replace the CVT belt/rollers, open up the final drive gear box to replace the gear-oil submerged bearings. The new CVT belt made a big difference. Acceleration was slower, rpms were lower but average fuel economy increased from 40km/L to 45km/L, the 80km/h cruising rpm has returned to 7000rpm. Before I drained out this oil at the end of this 3,000km, the dipstick was one-third lower which was the same with all the other oil samples. Copper was lower than 3rd sample 300v2 but still higher than 2nd sample Q8 F1. Silver was lower than 3rd sample 300v2 but about the same as 2nd sample Q8 F1. The rest of the metals are about the same as previous samples. This oil at the start is at 20.8cSt according to the mobil data sheet. The oil sample viscosity test at 21.56cSt showed that it has thickened a little bit but still in the 50 range. Flashpoint was also the highest at 480F (mobil data sheet 417F). I believe the lighter hydrocarbon from the oil might have evaporated causing the thickening. TBN was the lowest among all samples but still plentiful.

Conclusion Motul 300v2 10W-50, Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50, Q8 F1 10W-50:

When comparing copper and silver wear number, Q8 F1 10W-50 is best, then Mobil 1 V-twin 20W-50, Motul 300v2 10W-50 worst. But can i really confidently say that? No. Because the numbers on the Motul 300v2 doesn’t seem to be 100% correct because of the sustained higher load/rpm? The Motul 300v2 such a highly regarded oil, shouldn’t produce such a result. According to the blackstone article
https://www.blackstone-labs.com/which-oil-to-use/
Different oil brands, but same vehicle, same usage pattern, should perform similarly in terms of wear numbers, as reflected in my reports (except copper and silver which is very strange). I am not sure if I’ll give 300v2 another chance as it’s not a cheap oil, plus the cost of oil analysis, but one thing for sure is that Mobil V-twin, Q8 F1 are half price of the 300v2 but perform about the same as the 300v2 if not better in my usage. I will reduce my OCI to 2,000km because I don’t like seeing double digits on Copper and Silver.

If you know why the Motul 300v2 4T factory line 10W-50 performed the way it did, or where the silver is coming from, leave a comment. Thanks for reading my reports and have a good day. Happy double tenth day, the Taiwan national day.
 
Messages
2,119
Location
Cedar Park, TX
exactly where in your oils path does it encounter SILVER to pick up and suspend?
how much is the cost of that part that contains silver in it? can we melt it down and make money?
78 is just beyond words for silver content in oil
 
Messages
788
Location
Colorado, USA
20w50 V-Twin (1 OCI) has given the best results of any oil I have run in my bike (ZRX1200). I am currently running M1 10w40 4T for the 3rd OCI as I put it in before the most recent sample of 10w40 4T was analyzed. But the reality is the two are so close I am not going to change the oil before I reach the 5000 mile OCI.
I have some RedLine 20w50 laying around that I will probably take a chance with after next summer’s riding season. It’s really not taking a chance but as a note, Redline has now reduce their moly content to 130 ppm versus the 600 ppm they had up until about a year ago. An email to Redline got the response they have reduced the moly content to be JASO MA2 compliant.
 
Messages
2,428
Location
Deep in the heart of Jersey
Hmmm. Being the bike doesn't have an oil filter, and Blackstone says the oil still has alot of life in it, and you don't want to go broke changing the oil every 10 days, would you be able to drain the oil and run it thru a oil filter, and put it back in the bike several times until either Blackstone,or you yourself feel it's time to change it out for new oil?.,,,
 
Messages
2,119
Location
Cedar Park, TX
Hmmm. Being the bike doesn't have an oil filter, and Blackstone says the oil still has alot of life in it, and you don't want to go broke changing the oil every 10 days, would you be able to drain the oil and run it thru a oil filter, and put it back in the bike several times until either Blackstone,or you yourself feel it's time to change it out for new oil?.,,,
why would you listen to the stoners?
 
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