2021 Chevy Duramax L5P - 9,750 miles/239 hours on oil - 31,300 total miles/734 total hours - HPL 5w-40

[wwillson]

This is a 2021 Chevy 3500 DRW L5P Duramax that pulls a 20,000 pound 5th wheel for a combined GVW of 29,500 pounds. I'm still pulling in eighth gear and oil consumption continues to be zero. EGTs when pulling average about 900°F vs. 1200°F when pulling in 10th. I'm very happy with how the HPL performed with 4.6ppm FE/1000 miles. Silicon only increased by 3ppm in 9,750 miles, which tells me the air filter is performing well. TBN retention is very good with a TBN of 13.76 after 10,000 miles and five months use. The viscosity is virtually the same as brand new oil, this oil doesn't shear.

Previous sample here:

2021 Chevy Duramax L5P - 19,000 miles/440 hours on oil - 21,500 total miles/495 total hours - HPL 5w-40

This is a 2021 Chevy 3500 DRW L5P Duramax that pulls a 20,000 pound 5th wheel for a combined GVW of 29,500 pounds. This engine has been consuming engine oil when pulling and I'm happy to report that pulling in 8th gear and increasing to 1850 RPMs has reduced the oil consumption to zero. All...

bobistheoilguy.com

Sample Information
Sample Date	6/23/2021	07/17/2021	8/24/2021	4/4/2022	7/1/2022	8/10/2022	1/18/2023
Machine Age miles	2,500	2,700	8,900	16,000	21,500	21,550	31,300
Oil Age miles	2,500	200	6,400	13,500	19,000	50	9,750
Machine Time hours	55	62	214	350	495	496	734
Oil Time hours	55	7	152	295	440	1	239
Filter Age miles	2,500	200	6,400	7,100	4,000	50	5,000
Oil Changed	Yes	No	No	No	Yes	No	No
Filter Changed	Yes	No	Yes	Yes	Yes	No	Yes
Make-up oil	0	0	0	1.5 qts	2.5	0	0
Brand	Factory	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL	HPL
Viscosity	15w-40	5w-40 CK-4	5w-40 CK-4	5w-40 CK-4	5w-40 CK-4	5w-40 CK-4	5w-40 CK-4
Wear Metals
Iron	12	4	36	67	102	16	61
Chromium	<1	<1	2	3	4	<1	2
Nickel	<1	0	0	<1	0	<1	<1
Titanium	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	0	<1
Silver	3	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1	<1
Aluminum	<1	0	15	13	14	3	8
Lead	6	1	2	4	3	1	2
Copper	109	28	85	188	203	29	185
Tin	6	1	0	6	6	2	2
Vanandium	<1	0	0	<1	<1	<1	<1
Additives
Boron	120	15	12	21	6	3	14
Barium	<1	0	0	0	0	0	4
Molybdenum	2	514	450	504	537	541	469
Manganese	<1	<1	<1	1	2	<1	2
Magnesium	672	995	968	1008	924	913	831
Calcium	1260	2439	2414	2557	2459	2375	2111
Phosphorus	1000	1099	1029	1064	981	973	847
Zinc	1155	1179	1148	1285	1233	1159	1078
Contaminants
Silicon	87	33	48	46	54	18	21
Sodium	7	5	3	3	5	2	5
Potassium	11	2	43	55	59	6	16
Fuel %	<1	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0	<1.0
Glycol	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG	NEG
Soot%	0.1	0.1	0.4	0.6	0.8	0.2	0.6
Fluid Condition
TBN	8.55	14.9	13.3	13.7	10.8	13.9	13.76
Viscosity	13.9	14.5	13.8	14.97	14.5	14.4	14.5

 

[Rod Knock]

I'm tempted to bolt a Spinner II filter to my dad's 14L D60 and switch him to HPL. Currently he's running Delvac Extreme 15W-40 with 1.5 gallons of HPL EC40. He's also super-happy with how the HPL MT-50 performs in his 13-speed Eaton-Fuller transmission. I am overly confident in HPL products and what Mr. David Ward and his excellent engineering team lead by Dr. Leslie Rudnick can do. Your UOAs reinforce our confidence in HPL products even more!

 

[AZjeff]

Impressive for hard working oil. Will you continue with 5000 mi filter change intervals and why are you doing that?

 

[wwillson]

Impressive for hard working oil. Will you continue with 5000 mi filter change intervals and why are you doing that?

Mostly because the filter is so small, partially because I still see quite a bit of machining/manufacturing debris in the filter.

GM Duramax 2020-2021 oil filter vs. 2001-2019 oil filter

Actually it depends on the inside diameter of the 22mm versus 13/16" filter mounting pipe. Assuming the wall thickness is about the same the 22mm is going to give more flow at the same pressure. But the flow in an engine is determined by the PD oil pump output volume as a function of engine...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Rod Knock]

Mostly because the filter is so small, partially because I still see quite a bit of machining/manufacturing debris in the filter.

GM Duramax 2020-2021 oil filter vs. 2001-2019 oil filter

Actually it depends on the inside diameter of the 22mm versus 13/16" filter mounting pipe. Assuming the wall thickness is about the same the 22mm is going to give more flow at the same pressure. But the flow in an engine is determined by the PD oil pump output volume as a function of engine...

bobistheoilguy.com

Mr. Wilson, would this be a suitable replacement for the PF26 oil filter?

2020-2022 GM 6.6L Duramax Engine Oil Filter - Premium High-Efficiency

2020+ GM 6.6L Duramax High-Efficiency Engine Oil Filter (replaces AC Delco PF26) This oversize PPE Engine Oil Filter has 2 times the specially engineered filter media equaling 522 square inches, that is over 100% larger media than OEM. A perforated metal center core and spiral-wrapped adhesive...

ppepower.com

Personally, I had good experiences with PPE products, mostly oil pans for engines and transmissions.

 

[wwillson]

Mr. Wilson, would this be a suitable replacement for the PF26 oil filter?

2020-2022 GM 6.6L Duramax Engine Oil Filter - Premium High-Efficiency

2020+ GM 6.6L Duramax High-Efficiency Engine Oil Filter (replaces AC Delco PF26) This oversize PPE Engine Oil Filter has 2 times the specially engineered filter media equaling 522 square inches, that is over 100% larger media than OEM. A perforated metal center core and spiral-wrapped adhesive...

ppepower.com

Personally, I had good experiences with PPE products, mostly oil pans for engines and transmissions.

Interesting, I will take a look.

 

[dnewton3]

That PPE filter also requires a relocation kit.
Typical marketing hype; the "5 um" filtration claim is unbounded ... what efficiency at 5um???????

 

[Rod Knock]

That PPE filter also requires a relocation kit.

2020-2022 GM 6.6L Duramax Fuel Coolant Pump Relocation Kit

Fuel Coolant Pump Relocation Kit This kit replaces the factory heater coolant pump mounting bracket and moves the pump further away from the oil filter so that the PPE High Efficiency 2020+ L5P Deep Oil Filter (114000750) can be installed. Using the large

ppepower.com

This kit replaces the factory heater coolant pump mounting bracket and moves the pump farther away from the oil filter so that the PPE High Efficiency 2020+ L5P Deep Oil Filter (114000750) can be installed.

It seems rather uncomplicated to install.

Typical marketing hype; the "5 um" filtration claim is unbounded ... what efficiency at 5um???????

I completely ignored that. I simply like bigger oil filters and when possible I install them if the engine I have allows for such an upgrade. That's the reason why I suggested it.

 

[The Critic]

Based on your usage, what service interval is the GM OLM suggesting?

 

[fantastic]

That's really shredding some copper! Isn't there a standard ratio like 20% of Iron is "Normal"? I saw a chart from an oil company showing Generally greater than >75 Copper is "Critical". That's based on 250 Iron so 30% of Iron 250 would be 75 copper in the Critical category.

Your iron 61 & copper being 185 that's just wild but I live under a rock. There's the internet chart world & then their's boots on the ground, like you, that are showing what happens in the real world.

I'm not trying to sound the alarm & you have a scheduled plan on this oil but the copper is bothering me compared to the other contaminates. I noticed that, while iron counts are low, copper seems to shred a bit more in these Duramax engines.

Thanks for posting

 

[wwillson]

Based on your usage, what service interval is the GM OLM suggesting?

Right at 8,000 miles

 

[wwillson]

That's really shredding some copper! Isn't there a standard ratio like 20% of Iron is "Normal"? I saw a chart from an oil company showing Generally greater than >75 Copper is "Critical". That's based on 250 Iron so 30% of Iron 250 would be 75 copper in the Critical category.

Your iron 61 & copper being 185 that's just wild but I live under a rock. There's the internet chart world & then their's boots on the ground, like you, that are showing what happens in the real world.

I'm not trying to sound the alarm & you have a scheduled plan on this oil but the copper is bothering me compared to the other contaminates. I noticed that, while iron counts are low, copper seems to shred a bit more in these Duramax engines.

Thanks for posting

Read this article at Machinery Lubrication, it does a great job of explaining where copper comes from and why it usually means nothing for an engine.

Copper and Your Diesel Engine Oils

I recently analyzed a database of more than 30,000 oil analysis reports from diesel engine samples (Class 8, long-haul trucks). With so much information at my fingertips, I was like a kid in a...

www.machinerylubrication.com

 

[fantastic]

Read this article at Machinery Lubrication, it does a great job of explaining where copper comes from and why it usually means nothing for an engine.

Copper and Your Diesel Engine Oils

I recently analyzed a database of more than 30,000 oil analysis reports from diesel engine samples (Class 8, long-haul trucks). With so much information at my fingertips, I was like a kid in a...

www.machinerylubrication.com

Thanks for that article link

I didn't see anything that stated anything close to "It usually means nothing". It depends on the source is what I take from it.

Some statements from the article caught my attention.

"Because copper suspensions from cooler core leaching and coolant leaks are soluble or the associated copper particulates are smaller than 1 micron, they likely won’t appear on the membrane for microscopic analysis. Only the copper from wear will be visible, which is helpful in distinguishing the source."

"From the oil analyst’s perspective, determining the source, nature and state of copper is essential to correctly interpreting the alarm in terms of engine reliability and the appropriate response."

"For new engines with less than 1,500 hours of service life, the cooler core becomes an active reaction site for the ZDDP, resulting in copper sulfides forming on the copper cooler tubes."

I'll have to wonder what the copper will look like once you reach a 1500 hour use of your truck.


You can see from their chart graph, from 30,000+ Oil samples, states the average Copper is 65% less than iron. While it does show the copper can "Vary" more than iron the averages are still compelling. Put another way... Out of 30K OTR Truck samples Iron is 60% higher than Copper on average.

Furthermore, The standard deviation on that graph shows copper can vary, higher than iron, by 61%. Your copper is over 300% of Iron. This is way over even the standard deviation of that graph of 30k oil samples.

Perhaps this UOA is showing there is still some leaching from various components & not any major wear going on but it still is something to look at. This is in no way trying to detract you from your mission here & is solely my thoughts & what I see.

Keep on truckin'

 

[userfriendly]

Thanks for that article link

I didn't see anything that stated anything close to "It usually means nothing". It depends on the source is what I take from it.

Some statements from the article caught my attention.

"Because copper suspensions from cooler core leaching and coolant leaks are soluble or the associated copper particulates are smaller than 1 micron, they likely won’t appear on the membrane for microscopic analysis. Only the copper from wear will be visible, which is helpful in distinguishing the source."

"From the oil analyst’s perspective, determining the source, nature and state of copper is essential to correctly interpreting the alarm in terms of engine reliability and the appropriate response."

"For new engines with less than 1,500 hours of service life, the cooler core becomes an active reaction site for the ZDDP, resulting in copper sulfides forming on the copper cooler tubes."

I'll have to wonder what the copper will look like once you reach a 1500 hour use of your truck.


You can see from their chart graph, from 30,000+ Oil samples, states the average Copper is 65% less than iron. While it does show the copper can "Vary" more than iron the averages are still compelling. Put another way... Out of 30K OTR Truck samples Iron is 60% higher than Copper on average.

Furthermore, The standard deviation on that graph shows copper can vary, higher than iron, by 61%. Your copper is over 300% of Iron. This is way over even the standard deviation of that graph of 30k oil samples.

Perhaps this UOA is showing there is still some leaching from various components & not any major wear going on but it still is something to look at. This is in no way trying to detract you from your mission here & is solely my thoughts & what I see.

Keep on truckin'

I performed 3 UOAs on a 6.6 LML over a 7 year period, about every 3rd oil change. Finally after 100,000 miles the copper was down to near zero.
Other metals trended down as well over this time period.

 

[The Critic]

Right at 8,000 miles

So, about 200 engine hours. That isn't exactly a short interval for towing and a conventional 15W40, which is what the owners manual specifies.

 

[wwillson]

Thanks for that article link

I didn't see anything that stated anything close to "It usually means nothing". It depends on the source is what I take from it.

Some statements from the article caught my attention.

"Because copper suspensions from cooler core leaching and coolant leaks are soluble or the associated copper particulates are smaller than 1 micron, they likely won’t appear on the membrane for microscopic analysis. Only the copper from wear will be visible, which is helpful in distinguishing the source."

"From the oil analyst’s perspective, determining the source, nature and state of copper is essential to correctly interpreting the alarm in terms of engine reliability and the appropriate response."

"For new engines with less than 1,500 hours of service life, the cooler core becomes an active reaction site for the ZDDP, resulting in copper sulfides forming on the copper cooler tubes."

I'll have to wonder what the copper will look like once you reach a 1500 hour use of your truck.


You can see from their chart graph, from 30,000+ Oil samples, states the average Copper is 65% less than iron. While it does show the copper can "Vary" more than iron the averages are still compelling. Put another way... Out of 30K OTR Truck samples Iron is 60% higher than Copper on average.

Furthermore, The standard deviation on that graph shows copper can vary, higher than iron, by 61%. Your copper is over 300% of Iron. This is way over even the standard deviation of that graph of 30k oil samples.

Perhaps this UOA is showing there is still some leaching from various components & not any major wear going on but it still is something to look at. This is in no way trying to detract you from your mission here & is solely my thoughts & what I see.

Keep on truckin'

I should have been more clear. The Duramax oil cooler is known to leach copper into the oil. The leaching slowly dissipates over time, which I expect will happen in my Duramax. @dnewton3 has a large database of Duramax UOAs and has done lots of statistical analysis of the data. @dnewton3, what is the trend you see in the Duramax data?

Knowing that the Duramax oil cooler leaches copper is why I said I'm not concerned about the copper in the oil. The article didn't say, "Wayne, you are in the clear, nothing to worry about."

 

[userfriendly]

I should have been more clear. The Duramax oil cooler is known to leach copper into the oil. The leaching slowly dissipates over time, which I expect will happen in my Duramax. @dnewton3 has a large database of Duramax UOAs and has done lots of statistical analysis of the data. @dnewton3, what is the trend you see in the Duramax data?

Knowing that the Duramax oil cooler leaches copper is why I said I'm not concerned about the copper in the oil. The article didn't say, "Wayne, you are in the clear, nothing to worry about."

Yep. A Caltex instruction video warned against changing brands of engine oil from one drain interval to the next, because just as the copper is deactivated, the next additive package may scrub it off and start the process all over.

 

[AZjeff]

So you'll run this oil out to 20k miles again? Your Fe at 9700 miles is where it was at 13,500 previously. You might hit your 100 ppm Fe limit around 15k miles.

 

[fantastic]

I should have been more clear. The Duramax oil cooler is known to leach copper into the oil. The leaching slowly dissipates over time, which I expect will happen in my Duramax. @dnewton3 has a large database of Duramax UOAs and has done lots of statistical analysis of the data. @dnewton3, what is the trend you see in the Duramax data?

Knowing that the Duramax oil cooler leaches copper is why I said I'm not concerned about the copper in the oil. The article didn't say, "Wayne, you are in the clear, nothing to worry about."

Too funny

I could have worded the beginning statement better. I too would like so see if DNewton could "Shed" some light on copper with Dmax ratio's. I'm not denying they are some of the "Best wearing engines" but I've taken notice they seem to have higher copper though compared to say other Medium duty engines in light trucks.

As another poster mentioned after 100k they really seen the copper trend to nothing substantial. Although I'm going to assume yours will be higher than a lot if you're using it to tow exclusively. Is this all tow miles?

It's great to have these discussions. Where else in the world can we spend so much time & have this much fun

Thanks

 

[fantastic]

I performed 3 UOAs on a 6.6 LML over a 7 year period, about every 3rd oil change. Finally after 100,000 miles the copper was down to near zero.
Other metals trended down as well over this time period.

That is good news.. so there is some obvious leaching going on but it will subside in the long haul. Thanks