Perma Cool Dual Remote Full Flow with Bypass

[Trucku]

Hi all , I am new to this forum. I joined the site today after reading some threads on filters and bypass filtration. I was unable to search them all and hope someone can give me a more narrower direction to my question.

I have a perma cool dual remote setup on my explorer. I installed this just 2 weeks ago. My full flow is a Bosch 3500. I was using a Fram PH8A, but switched after I did more research on it. My Bypass that I am using is a Fram PB50. I will be going to a Balwind b50 filter though. I wanted to know how can I make my Bypass flows successfully in this setup. I know the Amsoil setup has a restrictor valve, but i have not been able to find any information on it. I was hoping to duplicate it. If its not a good idea i will just put on a sandwich adapter and run the bypass seperate and have it flow into the pan and run 2 Bosch on the perma cool setup.
Any help would be great.


I also just installed the perma cool remote transmission filter. Truck started to shift better after 2 days or so. I used to get a weird "whinning" noise when going from park to drive for the first time after sitting over night. Now that has not manifested again.


Great Site!

Thanks Again.

 

[Gary Allan]

First

I adapted my Permacool that was already plumbed to use the Amsoil filters (I used the Amsoil threaded inserts). I got very little flow through the bypass filter until I got some accumulation on the full flow filter.

You must have bought an adapter from tmvtaylor on ebay

I tried to come up with ways to bias the flow like Amsoil does. No matter what I came up with, there was nothing that would be "reactive" like the biasing valve that Amsoil uses. Even if you put a gasket between the full flow filter and the mount that covered half of the holes ..once warm it would be all for nothing ..and you may run into issues when the oil is cold since your restriction is before the bypass valve in the filter ..and the bypass filter has none

.


10um is good filtration ..but it's nowhere near what an Amsoil filter can do ...nor a tp type filter. It's still very good by full flow standards. I would suggest that you go back to tmvtaylor (great source ..but his S&H charges are a little up there) and get a threaded adapter that would allow you to use Amsoil bypass filters (3/4-16 to 1-16)..but you'll still face the same issue of biasing the flow. You'll still get great filtering performance, but it won't be primo right from the get go.

My only suggestion is to use the most densely made full flow filter that you can find. I am unsure of your Bosch ..but I imagine that PureOne and certainly Mobil 1 filters filter to a fine level and (I assume) would accumulate more material sooner. It still takes a long time to saturate a filter ..but equaling them out (the bypass and the full flow) should occur in a few thousand miles.

Can I assume that you're going to be doing extended drains??


If you go to an alternate setup (the sandwich) ..just get another adapter for the Permacool setup and run two bypass filters. Put any old filter below the sandwich. The Permacool sandwich will maintain a constant 2 PSID across the bypass filters. The flow will vary depending on the viscosity/temp of the oil ..but it will always want to go through it.

For that matter, get two 3/4-16 to 1-16 insert/adapters from tmvtaylor and put two Amsoil bypass filters on your dual mount. This will elevate you to a very fine level of filtration with a very long service interval.

The economics of it are clouded a little ..but it usually breaks down to how often you want to service the filters to how fine you can get on filtration.

What engine do you have in this Explorer??

 

[unDummy]

Beside the 'boutique full flow filters', I would think that a filter with a higher bypass setting might help force some oil through the bypass filter.

Some of the German engines had 3/4 threaded filters that had bypass ratings from 15 to 30PSI vs. 10psi on the PH8a equivalents.

Or, use a filter with no bypass. I wonder if the Wix 51641/51647 plus the PB50 would flow enough!

And, the PH8a sized Trasko might be another choice. It forces as much oil through it bypass element prior to full flow. This means that it'll also be forcing oil through the PB50.

 

[unDummy]

 

[Trucku]

GARRY ALLEN, UNDUMMY Great advice. Thanks so much


I have a 2002. 4.0 v6 Explorer

I think the Bypass I am going to will be the Baldwin Filters b50. It’s rated at 1 micron and need 10lbs to flow it. And it’s like 5 bucks I believe. I wanted to put a more restrictive full flow filter so I can flow my bypass, but don't want risk starving the engine at highway speeds.
The Bosch is a great filter. I am currently on a Fram pb50 for bypass. After an annoying call to Fram I found out yielded only a rating of 10 microns. Fram's engineer tech was unable to give me any useful information. He was not even able to tell me how many pounds are needed to flow it. Baldwindfilters.com tech was A+ and gave me lots of information on there b50. What’s great about that filter I can buy the long version of it 2 inches more on bypass. So far the bypass has been getting as hot as the full flow so I have hopes its working. I will be installing my oil pressure gauge on the exit side of the Perma cool setup to see what I am getting after these 2 filters. I think I will try to duplicate the restrictor valve that Amsoil uses. Just wish I could see a pick of one.

My transmission is very happy with the external filter. Shifting has noticeably changed. Have to say am surprised. I figure in week or 2 I will hook up some hoses to the transmission and on the inlet side have 15 quarts of new merconV and then have the outlet dump into empty bucket. I will run it all through. Then change the external filter to a super long filter from Baldwin.


I will defintely start extended changes and oil tests.
LOL I got my current bypass adapter form TVMTAYLOR.
I love all the Perma cools he can sell for outrageous prices. LOL I asked him once and denied they were Perma cool mounts...lol

Again if worse comes to worse its sandwich adapter...and maybe the 2 bypass as suggested and an extra long baldwin on the full flow.

Love the site...: D

 

[Nebraskan]

Just a thought and question. If you have the sandwich adapter on, and take oil off the adapter (from full flow) to the bypass, it doesn't have the 65 lbs of pressure that you see on the oil pressure gage? It almost sound like that without some sort of restrictor on the full flow, that you don't get sufficient flow (translate that to pressure) to the bypass filter. Does the full flow take the lions share of the oil?

 

[Trucku]

I would like to put a tee adapter on the perma cool and get a Frantz Filter. Then run 2 quality full flows on Perma Cool. But the Frantz filters are just to expensive.

 

[deepsquat]

try ebay if you can't afford a new motor guard from Ralph ..at times you can get a Frantz for $20.00

 

[Trucku]

who is Ralph?

I would love to find one for that cheap...lol
Guess I am gonna have to camp Ebay...

 

[Shaman]

Why not convert the head to a dual amsoil and use a sandwich to feed the heads. And yes, there have been alot of TP filters on ebay lately.

 

[Trucku]

That's a thought.

I am going to have to go to a more affordable bypass filter, Baldwins B50. I have a tight budget.

I am looking online for a single perma cool remote filter mount. I will feet it from the dual mount. I will also mount it behind my grill like my transmission filter. All this IF I can't get a Frantz for reasonable price.

 

[Shaman]

Amsoil's single BP-80-A head wasn't that bad when I talked to Pablo about it.

 

[Gary Allan]

This is a OHC engine, IIRC.

You'll always have flow through any filter run in parallel with another. You will always have flow regardless of pressure applied. It will always vary based on pressure applied and the relative resistance that they present to the flow. When Baldwin said 10psi was required ..they must have meant at idle or whatever ..or "to be effective" type qualification.

I have no issue with your filter selection. Given the tight budget, it's a mixed bag. You may have to service those filters more often then an Amsoil filter with its "radial depth media" ..but will still do quite well.

On the issues of oil starvation ..it's unlikely to occur in high speed operation. Your oil is warm/hot and very easily pumped compared to when cold. If you are going to run into issues, it would be during cold startup (if you're employing some home grown restrictor to bias the flow).

You don't need the restrictor to work when cold ..you need it when the oil is thin. That's why Amsoil's sprung valve is ideal in this usage. It's reactive and compensates for varied conditions.


You may just be able to buy the Amsoil restrictor valve ..but I don't see a part # for it. They use 3/4-16 threads for the fittings ..but that's about the size of 1/2" NPT fittings (the 1/2" is ID).

You should see very little, if any fitler differential. With two filters ..or even 1 fullflow filter ..the pressure difference is next to nothing in most cases.

The B50 filter may not be all that restrictive at your oil flow rate. If it's getting warm from the day of installation, you need do no more alterations to the system.

 

[Nebraskan]

What you're saying, Gary, is that a sandwiched affair, with full flow filter underneat, and a port to a bypass and return to non-pressure side, the pressure is the same 50 lbs oil pressure? Just the size of the hose going to the bypass filter would make a difference to the "amount" of flow? Since bypass filters should not have a built in bypass valve in them as do full flow filters, then the difference is the dead-head from the oil at the start of going though the filter and how much time it takes to literally go throught the filter (depends on how dirty) the bypass filter is over time.

50# pressure going from the oil pan to the full flow sandwich/full flow filter. Until the full flow filter loads up to a restrictive point, then all the oil flows through the filtering media. Correct? When the full flow load to a certain point, then the bypass WITHIN the full flow will start to allow oil to go on through to the engine to prevent oil starvation? EXAMPLE:
Wix 57035 has a an application for lawn more engines, (small filter). It has an anti drain back valve and the By-Pass Valve setting is at 8 lbs PSI. So, when it becomes very dirty, or oil pressure exceeds 8lbs PSI the valve will open up.

In it's place I put in a Fram PH16, and equivalent of the Fram HP1 (actually it was a Wal-Mart Supertech oil filter). But, the specs at the Fram website show that for the HP (high performance) verison HP1 that the safety valve opening is at 22 psi, the recommended flow max is at 10GPM, and is an 18 micron filter. The OEM Briggs-Stratton filter is just a little bugger only 28 micron filter, rated at a maximum flow rate of 7-9 GPM. But, it and the supertech have a 3/4" X16 center thread and oil gasket same size. *S*

Getting back to this, let's say your full flow filter on your vehicle has a 22 # By-Pass Valve (safety valve), like the HP1 Fram. Now, your oil pressure at running is up to 50# on your vehicle (like my Buick), then does that mean that at around 22 lbs pressure that the main part of the oil is flowing through the bypass and less of it is actually going through the full flow filter?

 

[Gary Allan]

Okay ...that's a lot to digest, but let's start with the bypass valve in the full flow filter or in your block if you've got a Chebbie.

It reads differential. When you're reading 50lb on your guage (let's say it's downstream of the filter ...which most are) ..you're reading slightly higher above the filter. Notice that I said "higher". The pressure is developed when the oil starts playing bumper cars with itself as the gallery gets filled up. It "backs up" toward the pump. Changes in velocity are shown as pressure elevations. As long as you're below the relief limit of the oil pump, there is no such thing as a restriction to flow as we commonly think of it. It's an accelleration of flow. 5gpm through a 1' pipe ..5gpm through a 1" pipe is still 5gpm in all circumstances as long as you are not in pump relief. The oil will only change in velocity and subsequent "back pressure". So, even when your oil filter is somewhat loaded ...it can't process enough oil flow to develope too much in differential pressure. It's like being in a traffic jam as you approach a toll booth ..only to find that the traffic jam is continued past the toll booth and on as far as you can see beyond it. How much does it matter if only 25 cars a minute can be processed through the toll booth if the highway beyond it can only process 15 cars a minute?

This is a generic "usually" type conceptual view here. It's not all inclusive. You may run into a corner somewhere in your travels that isn't in complete alignment with it.

Now when the oil pump is in relief ...let's say with very cold and heavy oil ..then things change a bit. 5gpm (or whatever the flow is at the moment) doesn't mean 5gpm TO THE ENGINE. Some will be shunted either back to the pan or internally to the suction side of the pump (recirculating). Now there's no assured accelleration through any choke ...the choke is now ..a choke. Now the filter can be restrictive. It doesn't have that "back pressure" (or as much of it). If that pressure differential is great enough, then the filter relief valve opens.

The more the filter is loaded ..the easier it is for the bypass valve to open when you're in this state. Otherwise, even with a heavily loaded filter, the pressure differential should be quite low. It will vary depending on the visc of the fluid ...but still be relatively low.


As always, YMMV, so it's not totally cast in stone and surely someone will fall into exceptional conditions.


Now ...let's get on to the sandwich. Remember the toll booth traffic jam?? Same deal. As long as you're below the relief limit of the oil pump ..the oil will just accellerate however fast it has to to fit through that little itty-bitty relief port. The relief port is sprung and will maintain 2PSID. It opens @ 2 PSI-differential. If the flow is heavy or high ..it opens more ...if the flow is low or thin ..it opens less. The alternative route is through whatever you have on the end of the hoses - (cooler or bypass filter). Whatever they can't handle @ 2PSID in flow with just go through the relief port. As the oil heats up and thins ...more and more flow will pass through them ..and the port will close ..maybe all together.

That's why, in most cases (not all), you can put a dead headed valve on the outlet port of the Permacool and see NO DIFFERENCE in pressure at the guage. Sometimes, rarely, you do. In those limited cases, you have to drill an additional VERY SMALL hole in the sandwich to handle the flow at high viscosity.


Let's see how that settles in your head ..then come back and ask what is left in question.

 

[Nebraskan]

I've got a headache!!

Digesting it and will read and re-read it a bit. I looked at that dual remote filter setup I have (cleaned up a bunch) and noticed and also remember then, that on the one side there is a spring and steel ball bearing. It could be that this was one way they (Amsoil) was garnering enough flow to the be effective to their spin on by-pass filter, and have flow to the full flow as well.

In it, it just looks like the oil that went through the by-pass (now VERY clean) just enters the stream from the full flow on it's way back to the spin-on remote sending unit, completing the cycle.

 

[Gary Allan]

Then you must have an older Amsoil unit made by Permacool. They still have some stuff made by Permacool. I guess you don't need anything then

You just need to put the full flow under/beyond the spring and the ball and have the bypass filter see the oil first as the flow enters the mount.

All you have to do is plumb it to the engine when you clean up the adapter.

You're almost done.

 

[Trucku]

I have looked around for the restrictor valve that Amsoil uses, but cant find anything. If someone running and Amsoil setup can put up a pic of the valve and maybe some measurements, it would be great...lol I know too much to ask.

I am gonna spend a few buck and get another single remote mount and put it behind my grill for a bypass filter and feed its return back into the oil pan. The Dual remote will be fitted with 2 premium full flows..


THANKS FOR ALL THE ADVICE!!!

Great site

 

[Nebraskan]

Well, apparently I have it right then. Looks like the flow goes into the bracket and is held up a bit by the ball/spring and THEN it goes to the full flow filter, through it , and returns along with what managed to go though the bypass.

 

[Gary Allan]

Yes, that distressed motif just sets it off oh so well.

I'm uncertain of how a differential gauge would work here. It would surely tell you when both filters were shot. Like the relief in the Permacool sandwich, I imagine that it would be more active when the oil was thick ..yet would just close more to maintain the 2PSID as the oil warmed. I'm not too well versed on springs to a fine degree ..but that doesn't appear to be a progressive design. I think it would maintain a given differential up to the point where it was fully compressed 24/7 and then you would see something higher. I guess when you saw it start to exceed the common differential (higher/longer) it would be an indicator that you could figure out with some experience.

That is, you're gonna reach a point where the normal full flow filter loading is going to start showing additional PSID above the static spring/ball maintained PSID. This wouldn't tell you that your bypass element is saturated ..or rather, your bypass element could have been saturated before that event occurs. Running them in tandem like this, however, would probably take much longer to get to this state then most are willing to leave them in there without some servicing.