Pennzoil Ultra 5W-40 Euro

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Originally Posted By: felixthecat
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The Euro 5w-30 is low SAPS.

Yeah, it meets the VW 504/507 specs. The 5W-40 meets only 502, 503.01 and 505. I would have thought the 40 misses the 504/507 spec due to MPG, but with HTHS reported identical, I'm not so sure of the reason.

I think the oil of choice for my S4 V8 may be the Platinum VX diesel 5W-30. It's 504/507 but with presumably higher SAPS than the gas oil.


VW 502 and 504 are both specs currently in use. These are different oils for different applications. True BMW LL04 and VW 504 can be use in Europe where BMW LL01 and VW 502 were formerly used.......but in the USA LL04 and VW 504 are not recommended for gasoline engines due to our fuel quality ( high sulphur and ethanol). Presumably the TBN for these oils is too low for our gasoline and not suitable for the extended drain intervals that these oils are marketed for.


I'm sorry, but this needs clarification. Audi/VW lists a whole slew of 504/507 oils for use in the USA, and all gas engines after 2007 are required / expected to use 504/507. I have eBahn and searched for ANY Audi/VW TSBs or documentation related to this, and there is simply nothing to substantiate this. My dealer also confirms they use Castrol SLX Professional LL03 (504/507 specific oil) in all new motors since 2007.
I've seen this before, and asked for any links or official documentation to substantiate it, but there was no reply.
Do you have any such evdidence....or is this simply a BITOG recommendation and not the official suggestion/requirement from Audi-of-America?

I wonder if the lack of any recommendation to run a long-life variable OCI in the USA is not getting mixed-up here? My understanding is that 504/507 can and should be used for any vehicles speccing 502, 503, 505 etc but never in any long OCI like the EU 30000km/18000 mile type distances. In the USA, the standard 10K mile interval is the maximum recommended in my Audi S4, regardless of whether I run a 504/507 oil or not.

Thanks!


My car is a 2008 model ( actually built in march 2009 ) and it has a warning sticker in the engine bay that states that oils meeting VW 502 standards should be used. My dealer uses 5W-40 Syntec right now for all gasoline engines..........VW 502 is a current specification.
There are very few things that one say with confidence on any oil subject but that "all gas engines (USA) after 2007 are required / expected to use 504/507" is just plain wrong.
After many phone calls and searches I have, like you, found no answers but only snippets of information that I have summarized above. Obviously Audi engineers do not read Bobisthoilguy!

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy


I'm sorry, but this needs clarification. Audi/VW lists a whole slew of 504/507 oils for use in the USA, and all gas engines after 2007 are required / expected to use 504/507. I have eBahn and searched for ANY Audi/VW TSBs or documentation related to this, and there is simply nothing to substantiate this. My dealer also confirms they use Castrol SLX Professional LL03 (504/507 specific oil) in all new motors since 2007.
I've seen this before, and asked for any links or official documentation to substantiate it, but there was no reply.
Do you have any such evdidence....or is this simply a BITOG recommendation and not the official suggestion/requirement from Audi-of-America?

I wonder if the lack of any recommendation to run a long-life variable OCI in the USA is not getting mixed-up here? My understanding is that 504/507 can and should be used for any vehicles speccing 502, 503, 505 etc but never in any long OCI like the EU 30000km/18000 mile type distances. In the USA, the standard 10K mile interval is the maximum recommended in my Audi S4, regardless of whether I run a 504/507 oil or not.

Thanks!


Our 08 rabbit was never required to run 504/507 oils, including in the manuals and documentation that came with it. Because of the supposed back-compatability making 504 acceptable to use in place of 502, we have done a few OCIs. The rabbit OM recommends 10k OCIs on 502 syn. The 504 oils could not make it to 7500 based upon TBN retention.

So, can the recommendation be made? I suppose, but certainly not for longer than 5k OCIs in ga$$ers, or not without damage occurring due to TBN going effectively to zero.

There is a reason why BMW has remained with the LL-01 spec here in the USA (while euro cars can use LL-04). Between the sulfur in the fuel, lack of lean stratified charge, etc., the oils cannot handle it. And that is per my experience and analytical results, as well as their confirmation by specifications.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy


I'm sorry, but this needs clarification. Audi/VW lists a whole slew of 504/507 oils for use in the USA, and all gas engines after 2007 are required / expected to use 504/507. I have eBahn and searched for ANY Audi/VW TSBs or documentation related to this, and there is simply nothing to substantiate this. My dealer also confirms they use Castrol SLX Professional LL03 (504/507 specific oil) in all new motors since 2007.
I've seen this before, and asked for any links or official documentation to substantiate it, but there was no reply.
Do you have any such evdidence....or is this simply a BITOG recommendation and not the official suggestion/requirement from Audi-of-America?

I wonder if the lack of any recommendation to run a long-life variable OCI in the USA is not getting mixed-up here? My understanding is that 504/507 can and should be used for any vehicles speccing 502, 503, 505 etc but never in any long OCI like the EU 30000km/18000 mile type distances. In the USA, the standard 10K mile interval is the maximum recommended in my Audi S4, regardless of whether I run a 504/507 oil or not.

Thanks!


Our 08 rabbit was never required to run 504/507 oils, including in the manuals and documentation that came with it. Because of the supposed back-compatability making 504 acceptable to use in place of 502, we have done a few OCIs. The rabbit OM recommends 10k OCIs on 502 syn. The 504 oils could not make it to 7500 based upon TBN retention.

So, can the recommendation be made? I suppose, but certainly not for longer than 5k OCIs in ga$$ers, or not without damage occurring due to TBN going effectively to zero.

There is a reason why BMW has remained with the LL-01 spec here in the USA (while euro cars can use LL-04). Between the sulfur in the fuel, lack of lean stratified charge, etc., the oils cannot handle it. And that is per my experience and analytical results, as well as their confirmation by specifications.

I was going to say exact same thing regarding LL04.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat

My car is a 2008 model ( actually built in march 2009 )

How is that possible? What car do you have?

 

[tenderloin]

Part of this started when Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 first came out. I called Mobil because on the ESP 5W-30 PDS I noticed ACEA (Meets Engine Test Requirements) API (Meets Engine Test Requirements). The other M1 oils did not have the Meets Engine Test Requirements after the listed specs.

When I called Mobil 1 at first they were surprised that the oil was being sold at Pep Boys. After my inquiry they sent me an email stating that it should not be used in gasoline engines in the US because of lower quality gasoline. When I wrote back and mentioned ESP had VW 502 spec on the bottle, they said OK go ahead and use it for the vehicles spec'd on the bottle.

I have 12 qt's I have not yet used......

 

[Johnny]

What is there about our gasoline that is worse than the gasoline in Europe, and what is there about our diesel fuel that is better than the diesel fuel in Europe?

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
What is there about our gasoline that is worse than the gasoline in Europe, and what is there about our diesel fuel that is better than the diesel fuel in Europe?

Our diesel fuel is worse in pretty much every measurable way than that available in Europe, because we have a terrible spec for diesel fuel (ASTM D975) and theirs is much more stringent (EN 590).

For example, cetane number & lubricity -

ASTM D975:
CN 40 minimum
Lubricity, HFRR wear scar maximum 520µm (acceptable to have two samples averaging 560µm!)

EN 590:
CN 49 minimum
Lubricity HFRR wear scar maximum 460µm

Bosch, Stanadyne, Delphi, Denso & Continental have a joint position statement from 2009 that says greater than 460µm wear scar will lead to shortened lifespan of components and a 'first fill' should have fuel below 400µm 'in order to guarantee good "run-in" of the injection system. I also have a presentation from Bosch showing real world wear from pumps running various lubricity fuels... the difference between 460µm & 520µm fuels is dramatic!

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: Johnny
What is there about our gasoline that is worse than the gasoline in Europe, and what is there about our diesel fuel that is better than the diesel fuel in Europe?

Our diesel fuel is worse in pretty much every measurable way than that available in Europe, because we have a terrible spec for diesel fuel (ASTM D975) and theirs is much more stringent (EN 590).

For example, cetane number & lubricity -

ASTM D975:
CN 40 minimum
Lubricity, HFRR wear scar maximum 520µm (acceptable to have two samples averaging 560µm!)

EN 590:
CN 49 minimum
Lubricity HFRR wear scar maximum 460µm

Bosch, Stanadyne, Delphi, Denso & Continental have a joint position statement from 2009 that says greater than 460µm wear scar will lead to shortened lifespan of components and a 'first fill' should have fuel below 400µm 'in order to guarantee good "run-in" of the injection system. I also have a presentation from Bosch showing real world wear from pumps running various lubricity fuels... the difference between 460µm & 520µm fuels is dramatic!


Are the HPFP in the newer VW TDI's being shipped with internal teflon coatings to make up for the higher wear scar rating?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
What is there about our gasoline that is worse than the gasoline in Europe, and what is there about our diesel fuel that is better than the diesel fuel in Europe?



(NOX emissions, Inability to operate in lean burn mode, sulphur, inconsistant ethanol concentrations). I believe one or more play a role as to why Low-SAPS oils weren't being used for gasser's in US Vehicles.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Are the HPFP in the newer VW TDI's being shipped with internal teflon coatings to make up for the higher wear scar rating?

Allegedly DLC coatings, but there have been a few issues with HPFPs grenading the fuel system of the new CR TDIs on TDIClub. IMO the issue has been overblown as far as actual number of failures, but it isn't cheap when it happens - it requires replacement of the entire fuel system, to the tune of six large. Most have been covered under warranty, but a precious vocal few have not.

VWoA's stance appears to be that most of these HPFP failures are cause by misfueling or contaminated fuel, neither of which are covered by warranty.

Based on this and our junk diesel specification I think it is prudent now more than ever to use a quality additive that addresses lubricity & free water. Emulsification is IMO more preferable to demulsification.

 

[glxpassat]

VW specs were getting so confusing that they created 504/507 to supersede all previous specs, including long-life oils. VW 504 is good for any gas engine and 507 for any diesel. But in America, they may not function as well in a 'long-life' sense as they would overseas.

VW 503.01 is/was a Audi high horsepower turbo long drain spec which is now superseded by 504. This is a more expensive oil than a 502 rated oil in all cases I've seen, except two - GC (best bargain out there), and when M1 0w-40 carried this spec, which it no longer does.

Bottom line - VW 502 has been superseded, but if all you need is a 502 oil, you have a cheaper alternative than 504. It is fine for cars that don't need the more expensive long drain oils. 502 has never been considered long-drain.

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat
VW specs were getting so confusing that they created 504/507 to supersede all previous specs, including long-life oils. VW 504 is good for any gas engine and 507 for any diesel. But in America, they may not function as well in a 'long-life' sense as they would overseas.

VW 503.01 is/was a Audi high horsepower turbo long drain spec which is now superseded by 504. This is a more expensive oil than a 502 rated oil in all cases I've seen, except two - GC (best bargain out there), and when M1 0w-40 carried this spec, which it no longer does.
Bottom line - VW 502 has been superseded, but if all you need is a 502 oil, you have a cheaper alternative than 504. It is fine for cars that don't need the more expensive long drain oils. 502 has never been considered long-drain.



vw 502 is a current specification. It is currently quoted in Audi owner's manuals.
Mobil 1 0w-40 is a vw 502 oil as is Shell helix 5w-40......both very current specificaiton oils. Both oils are also 503.01 compliant (Mobil 1 only labelled so OS). Vw 504/507 are low SAPS oils designed to protect diesel particulate filters. All gasoline Audi engines have switched to this oil in Europe just as BMW has switched all their cars to LL04. As far as I know BMW and Audi still recommend full SAPS/high TBN oils for gasoline engines in the USA. So VW 502 and BMW LL01 are both "old specs" in Europe and supreseded........but still current in other markets.

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: felixthecat

My car is a 2008 model ( actually built in march 2009 )

How is that possible? What car do you have?


Sorry....march 2008

 

[Geo_Prizm]

I thought about it too but I said to myself, maybe some company produces replicas of earlier models and sell it as such

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: glxpassat
VW specs were getting so confusing that they created 504/507 to supersede all previous specs, including long-life oils. VW 504 is good for any gas engine and 507 for any diesel. But in America, they may not function as well in a 'long-life' sense as they would overseas.

VW 503.01 is/was a Audi high horsepower turbo long drain spec which is now superseded by 504. This is a more expensive oil than a 502 rated oil in all cases I've seen, except two - GC (best bargain out there), and when M1 0w-40 carried this spec, which it no longer does.

Bottom line - VW 502 has been superseded, but if all you need is a 502 oil, you have a cheaper alternative than 504. It is fine for cars that don't need the more expensive long drain oils. 502 has never been considered long-drain.


This is precisely my understanding of the VW oil specs, and limitations with respect to long-drain in the USA.

I find it exceedingly hard to accept that the 504/507 SPEC itself provides LESS wear protection (or any other preferred characteristic) than the 502 spec it replaces. The ONLY comparative data/info I have seen regarding the two specs indicates that 504/507 provides significantly greater wear protection than 502, regardless of the fact that it has lower SAPS content.

I REALLY, REALLY wish that VW/Audi would clarify the position for us in the USA. I hesitate to debunk the idea expressed above that 502 may be "better" than the later 504 spec, simply because Audi DOES still provide oil certification on BOTH these specs. If 504 was absolutely backwards compatible with 502, as you would always expect, then why bother continuing to provide 502 spec oils on the latest TSBs along with the 504 oils?

But, on the other hand, if 504 is an oil spec that is NOT recommended for use in the USA, then WHY provide the 504 spec oils on the USA oil TSBs as suitable for any USA usage?

Given all I know here, I maintain that the 504 spec oils ARE suitable and backward compatible with 502 oils, but simply cannot be used as a long-drain oil like they can in Europe.

I don't believe they (504) provide any LESS protection than 502 oils, in the standard 10K OCI.
Compare the wear characteristics of the 504 vs 502 oils here... http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RP/PC/index.html

(But I will continue with my series of 4 x UOAs to compare precisely this....Castrol SLX Professional LL03 (504/507 oil) against my current Castrol SLX Professional OE (502) oil. Any abnormal wear or oil OCI problems should be clearly seen)
I will endeavor to take the samples at the same 4 mileage points as what I did for the OE oil, for a direct comparison. My operating conditions are similar. We'll see.

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: felixthecat

As far as I know BMW and Audi still recommend full SAPS/high TBN oils for gasoline engines in the USA.


So this is the crux of the matter...where did you guys hear or see this?

Obviously, we can't take old owner's manuals references to 502 only oils.....before the new 504/507 spec oils were even freely available and effectively superceding the other specs....so what references do you guys have that Audi does NOT recommend the use of 504 oils in USA gas engines?

 

[robertcope]

This thread seems to indicate that these people are seeing VW 507 in their owner's manuals:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266469

Quote:
I have a Q7 TDI and the only oil that will maintain your warranty is VW 507 00 spec oil.

This is on page 331 of the thick manual in your Audi binder, upper right part of page in bold.


Mobil's oil recommendation system also recommends their 504/507 oil for these cars, if you trust that to be accurate.

robert

 

[felixthecat]

Originally Posted By: robertcope
This thread seems to indicate that these people are seeing VW 507 in their owner's manuals:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=266469

Quote:
I have a Q7 TDI and the only oil that will maintain your warranty is VW 507 00 spec oil.

This is on page 331 of the thick manual in your Audi binder, upper right part of page in bold.


Mobil's oil recommendation system also recommends their 504/507 oil for these cars, if you trust that to be accurate.

robert


We are talking about gasoline eingines

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Originally Posted By: felixthecat

As far as I know BMW and Audi still recommend full SAPS/high TBN oils for gasoline engines in the USA.


So this is the crux of the matter...where did you guys hear or see this?

Not sure about Audi, but BMW's stance on the subject is noted here. See footnote (2) at the bottom. This info is from 2009 BMW TIS.

 

[OldBaldy]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: OldBaldy
Originally Posted By: felixthecat

As far as I know BMW and Audi still recommend full SAPS/high TBN oils for gasoline engines in the USA.


So this is the crux of the matter...where did you guys hear or see this?

Not sure about Audi, but BMW's stance on the subject is noted here. See footnote (2) at the bottom. This info is from 2009 BMW TIS.



Interesting. One thing to consider here, though, is that the VW 504/507 spec is much tougher than BMW LL04 or LL01 in general and requires greater oil performance in terms of:

-Wear
-Sludge
-Piston Deposits
-Oxidative Thickening
-Fuel Economy
-Aftertreatment compatibility

The BMW LL04 provides better control for:
-Soot Thickening