Pat Goss' perspective on thicker oils

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Pat is fighting against one of the biggest problems in America at the moment - the death of expertise. People believe with google they can "inform" themselves and make critical decisions on topics that in decades past we left up to the real experts. You know, people with PhDs who live and breathe a particular subject. Then the interweb came along and "Jim" with his C- average in prealgebra and his GED decided "climate change" isn't real because last fall it was 2 degrees F cooler than normal and the numbers do not make sense to him. Now it has extended to motor oil viscosities. Next people will be showing their heart surgeon a Youtube video instructing them how they'd like their surgery done.

Yes, I know the experts aren't always right but they are right a lot more than they are wrong and it still makes sense to follow the expert's opinions over you know, Jim the greeter at Walmart. The justifications for not following experts (the manufacturer engineers) are ludicrous - "This is just a guess, but engineers have little say in what oil is used"??? Really...do you want to rethink that statement? It is a WILD and counterintuitive guess about something you can not possibly have any knowledge about so why pose the statement? That's about as valid as, "I believe engineers make design decisions using a dartboard."



Similar to a doctor telling you a test for illness X is 99% accurate but not understanding that prevalence of the illness can significantly affect what the "99% accuracy" actually means? Or the engineers and computer programmers I know quite well talking about most of their decisions being affected by accountants and marketing departments?

"Truth" is a substantially complex thing.



Yet, medicine still saves a whole lot more people than it kills and the laptop I'm using to write this very post works flawlessly - in spite of the fact that doctors are [censored] and software engineers listen to accountants. Just because the experts are always right doesn't mean you are! It doesn't mean we as a society should throw the baby out with the bathwater. You and your "rationale" for why you should be an authority on everything/anything is exactly the problem - did you ever think that was just a bad doctor and your friends are tools who work for a [censored] company who cares more about the bottom line than the product? Did that ever cross your mind?

 

[HowAboutThis]

"did you ever think that was just a bad doctor and your friends are tools who work for a ****** company who cares more about the bottom line than the product? Did that ever cross your mind?


Did you ever think that a company like that could be building cars? 🤷â€â™‚ï¸

Guess I hit a nerve by saying "truth" can be "substantially complex." I thought it was pretty mundane.

Medical errors are only the 3rd leading cause of death, BTW...

 

[HowAboutThis]

Also PWMDMD,

To stay on topic, you missed replying to this...

Is a Subaru website an "expert" or a "Walmart greeter"?

"Subaru Synthetic Motor Oil comes in two SAE weights: OW-20 and 5W-30.
OW-20 is used in the non-turbo engine, designed for improved fuel economy and increased power.
5W-30 is formulated for the turbo engine, which runs at a higher temperature. It has increased protection against breakdown, and superior lubrication for optimal fuel economy. 5W-30 can be used for non-turbo vehicles, with the exception of the 2011 Forester."

https://www.patriotsubaru.com/synthetic-oil.htm

 

[ZeeOSix]

Some comments.


Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:37 - "Better protection doesn't come from thicker oil, or thinner oil, it comes from the right oil".


Pat Goss doesn't know much about tribology. It's been shown in many studies that higher viscosity gives larger MOFT, which is the only thing preventing metal-to-metal contact, especially in journal bearings. More MOFT means more protection from engine wear ... it's the most basic understanding of tribology which has been know for over 100 years.

The "right oil" aspect of his comment does make some sense when looking at the driving environment. Cold start viscosity it probably the biggest factor in choosing the "right oil". Even a 0W-xx is way thicker than a xW-50 at 100 deg C. But even at 100 C a thicker oil can give better wear protection by simply increasing the MOFT. If you want both of best worlds, chose something like a 0W-30 or 0W-40 if living in a very cold climate.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:44 - "The oil the engine was designed to use".


There is absolutely no proof that engines are designed around a specific oil viscosity. If they were, the same engines used in other countries besides the USA would not recommend or show a higher viscosity in the owner's manual.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:40 - "Oil recommended by the manufacturer."


What he really means is: Oil recommended by the manufacturer = CAFE credits.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:50 - "The primary job of oil in an engine is to keep moving parts from touching one another. This is done by a thin film of oil between parts".


Yes, the most basic concept of tribology. Refer back to comment 1 above.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 2:05 - "As engines have become more precise due to sophisticated computer controlled machining, the space or gap for this film of oil has become smaller. Now this means these engines need thinner oil to pass through those smaller gaps, and still provide the film of oil necessarily to keep parts from touching.


If you look back at any factory service manual - say for a Ford Mustang - all the engine clearances are basically the same ... have been for decades, way before thinner oils were "recommended" by the manufacture. And again, if that was true then the engine clearances for the same exact engines used in other countries beside the USA would have larger clearances ... which they don't.

His whole rant is basically misconception brainwashing, which he's been a victim of.

 

[HowAboutThis]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Some comments.


Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:37 - "Better protection doesn't come from thicker oil, or thinner oil, it comes from the right oil".


Pat Goss doesn't know much about tribology. It's been shown in many studies that higher viscosity gives larger MOFT, which is the only thing preventing metal-to-metal contact, especially in journal bearings. More MOFT means more protection from engine wear ... it's the most basic understanding of tribology which has been know for over 100 years.

The "right oil" aspect of his comment does make some sense when looking at the driving environment. Cold start viscosity it probably the biggest factor in choosing the "right oil". Even a 0W-xx is way thicker than a xW-50 at 100 deg C. But even at 100 C a thicker oil can give better wear protection by simply increasing the MOFT. If you want both of best worlds, chose something like a 0W-30 or 0W-40 if living in a very cold climate.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:44 - "The oil the engine was designed to use".


There is absolutely no proof that engines are designed around a specific oil viscosity. If they were, the same engines used in other countries besides the USA would not recommend or show a higher viscosity in the owner's manual.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:40 - "Oil recommended by the manufacturer."


What he really means is: Oil recommended by the manufacturer = CAFE credits.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:50 - "The primary job of oil in an engine is to keep moving parts from touching one another. This is done by a thin film of oil between parts".


Yes, the most basic concept of tribology. Refer back to comment 1 above.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 2:05 - "As engines have become more precise due to sophisticated computer controlled machining, the space or gap for this film of oil has become smaller. Now this means these engines need thinner oil to pass through those smaller gaps, and still provide the film of oil necessarily to keep parts from touching.


If you look back at any factory service manual - say for a Ford Mustang - all the engine clearances are basically the same ... have been for decades, way before thinner oils were "recommended" by the manufacture. And again, if that was true then the engine clearances for the same exact engines used in other countries beside the USA would have larger clearances ... which they don't.

His whole rant is basically misconception brainwashing, which he's been a victim of.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Thanks for suffering that for me. I never heard of him and don't plan on watch the video. but he sounds like he is appealing to authority without understanding the subject.


Originally Posted by HowAboutThis
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Some comments.


Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:37 - "Better protection doesn't come from thicker oil, or thinner oil, it comes from the right oil".


Pat Goss doesn't know much about tribology. It's been shown in many studies that higher viscosity gives larger MOFT, which is the only thing preventing metal-to-metal contact, especially in journal bearings. More MOFT means more protection from engine wear ... it's the most basic understanding of tribology which has been know for over 100 years.

The "right oil" aspect of his comment does make some sense when looking at the driving environment. Cold start viscosity it probably the biggest factor in choosing the "right oil". Even a 0W-xx is way thicker than a xW-50 at 100 deg C. But even at 100 C a thicker oil can give better wear protection by simply increasing the MOFT. If you want both of best worlds, chose something like a 0W-30 or 0W-40 if living in a very cold climate.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:44 - "The oil the engine was designed to use".


There is absolutely no proof that engines are designed around a specific oil viscosity. If they were, the same engines used in other countries besides the USA would not recommend or show a higher viscosity in the owner's manual.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:40 - "Oil recommended by the manufacturer."


What he really means is: Oil recommended by the manufacturer = CAFE credits.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:50 - "The primary job of oil in an engine is to keep moving parts from touching one another. This is done by a thin film of oil between parts".


Yes, the most basic concept of tribology. Refer back to comment 1 above.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 2:05 - "As engines have become more precise due to sophisticated computer controlled machining, the space or gap for this film of oil has become smaller. Now this means these engines need thinner oil to pass through those smaller gaps, and still provide the film of oil necessarily to keep parts from touching.


If you look back at any factory service manual - say for a Ford Mustang - all the engine clearances are basically the same ... have been for decades, way before thinner oils were "recommended" by the manufacture. And again, if that was true then the engine clearances for the same exact engines used in other countries beside the USA would have larger clearances ... which they don't.

His whole rant is basically misconception brainwashing, which he's been a victim of.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Some comments.


Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:37 - "Better protection doesn't come from thicker oil, or thinner oil, it comes from the right oil".


Pat Goss doesn't know much about tribology. It's been shown in many studies that higher viscosity gives larger MOFT, which is the only thing preventing metal-to-metal contact, especially in journal bearings. More MOFT means more protection from engine wear ... it's the most basic understanding of tribology which has been know for over 100 years.

The "right oil" aspect of his comment does make some sense when looking at the driving environment. Cold start viscosity it probably the biggest factor in choosing the "right oil". Even a 0W-xx is way thicker than a xW-50 at 100 deg C. But even at 100 C a thicker oil can give better wear protection by simply increasing the MOFT. If you want both of best worlds, chose something like a 0W-30 or 0W-40 if living in a very cold climate.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 0:44 - "The oil the engine was designed to use".


There is absolutely no proof that engines are designed around a specific oil viscosity. If they were, the same engines used in other countries besides the USA would not recommend or show a higher viscosity in the owner's manual.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:40 - "Oil recommended by the manufacturer."


What he really means is: Oil recommended by the manufacturer = CAFE credits.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 1:50 - "The primary job of oil in an engine is to keep moving parts from touching one another. This is done by a thin film of oil between parts".


Yes, the most basic concept of tribology. Refer back to comment 1 above.

Originally Posted by Pat Goss
@ 2:05 - "As engines have become more precise due to sophisticated computer controlled machining, the space or gap for this film of oil has become smaller. Now this means these engines need thinner oil to pass through those smaller gaps, and still provide the film of oil necessarily to keep parts from touching.


If you look back at any factory service manual - say for a Ford Mustang - all the engine clearances are basically the same ... have been for decades, way before thinner oils were "recommended" by the manufacture. And again, if that was true then the engine clearances for the same exact engines used in other countries beside the USA would have larger clearances ... which they don't.

His whole rant is basically misconception brainwashing, which he's been a victim of.


Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.


Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't care. I (and many others here) would rather have x+y instead of just x.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.


Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't care. I (and many others here) would rather have x+y instead of just x.


You can also choose to insure a 500k home for a million dollars if you want to. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone doesn't care. I (and many others here) would rather have x+y instead of just x.

You can also choose to insure a 500k home for a million dollars if you want to. Whatever floats your boat.


That's right ... people are still free in this country to do whatever they want to do. And some people make decisions on fact and science, not some wild man talking misconceptions in a YouTube video, lol.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Doesn't Prius (in the manual) allow 0W20-20W50? Someone here posted it one time.


Hey Mate, is this what you are after ?
I posted it earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by SR5

Here is a link to our (Australian) Camry Hybrid owners manual
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4890579/1

It lists: 0W16, 0W20, 5W20, 5W30, 10W30 and 15W40 as being acceptable by Toyota for its modern VVT Engine.


Note, we are not compelled to use just thick oils in Australia, any of the above are fine to keep your factory warranty. I'm sure some use 0W16 while others use 15W40. Most people wouldn't give a hoot, and just take the car to the local dealer / mechanic and use whatever bulk oil they stock.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.

How long do you typically keep vehicles? If you trade/lease every couple three years nothing matters. If you keep things for 10-20-30 years you want more than "adequate" protection.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


Who.
Cares...

If the engine needs x amount of protection, x+y doesn't make any difference.

How long do you typically keep vehicles? If you trade/lease every couple three years nothing matters. If you keep things for 10-20-30 years you want more than "adequate" protection.


My wife's Jeep is currently at 90k, six years old. Probably have it another five years or so. I've only had my car two years but the previous one was eight and I plan to have this one for quite a while.

An engine needs a minimum amount of protection. It's a safe bet that the recommended oil at very minimum meets that amount with some type of safety margin. Going beyond that doesn't guarantee anything really, other than making someone feel better I guess.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted by buster
Originally Posted by 4WD
Software in ECM that controls VVT and that comes back to viscosity compatibility for the hydraulic actuations.

Folks often say that same engine in country X runs thicker oil. True but if that thicker oil is in the owners manual for that engine … I'm going to place my bet that aforementioned system is programmed for it.


That is a very good point. I'm curious.


Two points, first I don't have to run a thicker oil according to my owners manual, rather I can run a thick or a thin oil, more options that's all. How can Toyota program it for both 0W16 and 15W40 simultaneously here, but not where you are ? All while keeping the same power output and the same parts numbers.

Second, the dominant variable here is temperature, look at the viscosity figures of two different oils, one at 40C and the other at 100C.
Shell Helix Ultra (PP) 0W20, KV40 = 45.3 cSt (synthetic)
Castrol GTX 15W40, KV100 = 14.5 cSt (mineral)

A cold 0W20 synthetic on start-up is much thicker than a hot 15W40 mineral on the highway, yet the engine is fine.

If going up one grade in viscosity was a problem, then cold starting any morning would be a much bigger problem.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted by SR5
Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
Doesn't Prius (in the manual) allow 0W20-20W50? Someone here posted it one time.


Hey Mate, is this what you are after ?
I posted it earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by SR5

Here is a link to our (Australian) Camry Hybrid owners manual
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4890579/1

It lists: 0W16, 0W20, 5W20, 5W30, 10W30 and 15W40 as being acceptable by Toyota for its modern VVT Engine.


Note, we are not compelled to use just thick oils in Australia, any of the above are fine to keep your factory warranty. I'm sure some use 0W16 while others use 15W40. Most people wouldn't give a hoot, and just take the car to the local dealer / mechanic and use whatever bulk oil they stock.


Yep,that's it brother!

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells


My wife's Jeep is currently at 90k, six years old. Probably have it another five years or so. I've only had my car two years but the previous one was eight and I plan to have this one for quite a while.

An engine needs a minimum amount of protection. It's a safe bet that the recommended oil at very minimum meets that amount with some type of safety margin. Going beyond that doesn't guarantee anything really, other than making someone feel better I guess.

Not that simple. A thicker oil should keep you out of the higher wear mixed and boundary situations more than a thinner oil. There's a lot of tech that went into making thinner oils adequate to hep with CAFE. That tech made thicker oils better too. I'm not using the bare minimum viscosity. Saving a $1 a month in gas doesn't interest me as much as having an engine in good condition for the longest period of time.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/states-of-lubrication/

 

[Bullwinkle007]

I don't believe what he is saying is accurate.
1 some engines are used world wide and in different countries recommend different weights for the same engine. Dubai is extreme hot, well so is the AZ desert in the summer, as well as Texas.

An engine with a 5/20 (recommendation) is not going to notice a difference between 5/20 or a 5/30. Example, Redline oils have a higher 100@c measured than say a PUP with both weights. That's why the PQIA has ranges of . Cst at 100c has a multitude of ranges for the same weight.

Corvette recommends 5/30 for daily use, but 15/50 for track use. If you drive hard all the time, run the 15/50. Look if you live in MN, your not going to be driving this car in the dead of winter.

The reason for the different weights for different countries has absolutely nothing do what the engine can handle, it's all about CAFE MPG credits and what the mfg sees for mpg in a lab.

The MFG would prefer you ware out the engine sooner so you buy a new one. Any engine running anything under a 30wt will burn oil after a certain point in time, vs a 30wt it could vary we'll go longer before it consumes oil. This also depends on how well you maintain the engine oil. Pi personally run 5/40, which will shear down to a 30wt, my car is driven at hard, and sees some idle time. I rather have a heavier wt oil under those hot piston rings, I live in a climate where it ranges from. 10-120 degrees I have had both Toyota and Honda engines. They could care less what's run in them. I have had gm 3.8L, it could care less if you ran 15/40 in the summer.

As far as warranty period, that's why the owner's manual states (recommended) NOT SHALL. IF YOU ACTUALLY HAD AN ENGINE FAILURE THE MANUFACTURER WOULD HAVE TO PROVE THAT THE OIL WEIGHT CAUSED THE FAILURE.

RECOMMEND MEANS SHOULD
SHALL MEANS YOU MUST

 

[4WD]

0w20 is the only oil in my owners manual, period … the AFM hardware is the same as when 5w30 was spec'd. No reason for subjecting the AFM system to 15w40 (non Dexos) over some imaginary bearing problems …

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted by Bullwinkle007
I don't believe what he is saying is accurate.
1 some engines are used world wide and in different countries recommend different weights for the same engine. Dubai is extreme hot, well so is the AZ desert in the summer, as well as Texas.

An engine with a 5/20 (recommendation) is not going to notice a difference between 5/20 or a 5/30. Example, Redline oils have a higher 100@c measured than say a PUP with both weights. That's why the PQIA has ranges of . Cst at 100c has a multitude of ranges for the same weight.

Corvette recommends 5/30 for daily use, but 15/50 for track use. If you drive hard all the time, run the 15/50. Look if you live in MN, your not going to be driving this car in the dead of winter.

The reason for the different weights for different countries has absolutely nothing do what the engine can handle, it's all about CAFE MPG credits and what the mfg sees for mpg in a lab.

The MFG would prefer you ware out the engine sooner so you buy a new one. Any engine running anything under a 30wt will burn oil after a certain point in time, vs a 30wt it could vary we'll go longer before it consumes oil. This also depends on how well you maintain the engine oil. Pi personally run 5/40, which will shear down to a 30wt, my car is driven at hard, and sees some idle time. I rather have a heavier wt oil under those hot piston rings, I live in a climate where it ranges from. 10-120 degrees I have had both Toyota and Honda engines. They could care less what's run in them. I have had gm 3.8L, it could care less if you ran 15/40 in the summer.

As far as warranty period, that's why the owner's manual states (recommended) NOT SHALL. IF YOU ACTUALLY HAD AN ENGINE FAILURE THE MANUFACTURER WOULD HAVE TO PROVE THAT THE OIL WEIGHT CAUSED THE FAILURE.

RECOMMEND MEANS SHOULD
SHALL MEANS YOU MUST



I think a word he uses multiple times is very accurate for those who are arm chair engineers on this board.

 

[dblshock]

Goss is kook, just run your 0/40 10k.