Particle Counts on three filters & one car

[TooSlick]

in order to make this a controlled experiment, you need to now go and run the same filter 3-4 times in a row and do particle counts, to see how repeatable the particle count sampling method is. In addition, this will tell you something about the effect on driving conditions (including ambient temps) on wear rates.

There is quite a spread in this numbers - certainly between the PUR1 and the Baldwin filter.I would perform this test after starting the engine cold and allowing it to idle for 15 minutes; then shut it off and immediately take a sample the same way everytime.

TS

 

[427Z06]

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This is a repeatable statistic when it comes to oil analysis.

Anyone doing oil anaylsis can call the lab that does their test and ask two simple questions:

1: Do silicon levels go up on your first sample after you change the air filter.

2: Do silicon levels go down on subsequent samplings after you change the air filter.

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The key word here is "statistic". Changing the air filter may decrease the silicon (silicon dioxide SiO2) levels on average, but that doesn't mean it'll happen every time. Examples, old filter isn't sealed well, or developed a defect during use. I personally had some leave stems work there way up the air intake duct and pierced my air filter several times. Changing the air filter lowered my silicon levels. Or how about the case where an old filter is used in a very dusty environment, then a new filter is used in a relatively clean environment. And there are several other scenarios mentioned earlier in the thread.

Further, you can have silicon leaching from engine sealants. It normally decrease over time, but if any new thread or gasket sealant is used, silicon levels can rise again.

 

[427Z06]

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in order to make this a controlled experiment, you need to now go and run the same filter 3-4 times in a row and do particle counts, to see how repeatable the particle count sampling method is. In addition, this will tell you something about the effect on driving conditions (including ambient temps) on wear rates.

There is quite a spread in this numbers - certainly between the PUR1 and the Baldwin filter.

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Yep...more data points always leads to a more valid conclusion. Makes you wonder about the yahoos who make definitive statements after one OCI with a particular oil.

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I would perform this test after starting the engine cold and allowing it to idle for 15 minutes; then shut it off and immediately take a sample the same way everytime.

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That sounds to me like one of the worst things you could do. It would be much better to take the sample after a long drive at highway speeds. Ideally, identical test loops at highway speeds.

Further, if you sample from the drain plug, get some carburetor cleaner and spray down the area of the oil pan where the drain plug is, followed by a lint-free cloth and some denatured alcohol. Like wise, clean the drain plug before reinstalling. Also, rinse the sample bottles with denatured alcohol. Insure all solvents have evaporated before use, sampling.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'll offer my variation here.

I'd run a couple of OCI's (halfway into a normal OCI) with a known lower end filter. "Box" the sumps into a clean container (mix well) and draw a sample for PC from that. Use that oil/PC as a baseline. Install a PureOne. Drive for XX miles ..sample ..test. Remove filter ..replace with M1 ...top up with baseline oil ...drive XX miles ...sample...test...

This should account for most contamination variables (handling....decantering,..etc.). The oil came from the same container ..the oil will have the same content and will be used for the same mileage. The only variable will be the filters used.

The only thing that would be a problem is assuring that you have a lousy filter for the creation of the test oil. It needs to have a decent amount of larger particles to be filtered (or not) by the test filters.

 

[427Z06]

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The only thing that would be a problem is assuring that you have a lousy filter for the creation of the test oil. It needs to have a decent amount of larger particles to be filtered (or not) by the test filters.

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One of the "Racing" type filters may serve this purpose. They emphasize flow and only filter out the big stuff.

 

[Filter guy]

427Z06;

If you notice I did mention leaks would account for a high rise in Silicon levels. This is generally seen when one has the same air filter on their vehicle over time and you are comparing the results of your samples.

Your scenarios are examples of how leaks can effect the silicon results. Either through media rupture or even housing/ hose leaks.

But we're talking apples and oranges delving into theorheticals.

SW heat had three samples. An Air filter with 30,000 miles on it. Then a new Air filter. And then a the air filter had 3,000 miles.

His numbers seemly are confusing when looking at silicon levels from experience. Wouldn't you say? How does the silicon level go down after the change and then up after 3,000 miles.

His driving in Arizona when it was dusty was with his first element before the change--as i understand it.

So he went from 10 on a used element in Arizona to 7 with a brand new one? His silicon should have went up with a new element. Whether he was still in Arizona or not.

Then his silicon number should go down as the filter loads. But his went up from 7 to 9.

I find these facts interesting. Which is why anyone who wants to call a lab can inquire about my two questions.

I see no reason via experience and through talking to lab folk that the silicon levels should go down with a new element. ( Unless you've totally blown the media in the old element or had a major leak of some sort) But his "low" numbers in all three testing samples indicate no major leaks or problems. That's another fact.

So perplexing it is..

 

[Gary Allan]

That would work. In my case, I'm SOL since they appear to only make racing filters in the full size

What's funny is that I went to Baldwin and put in a HP1 ..hoping to get a shorter/longer option. When I put Baldwin's idea for a xref back into Wix ..you get a loose filter ..with a 28um nominal rating ..but still with 7-9 gpm flow spec. It's a trans filter.

HP1 xref's to B252
B252 xref's to 51622 NOT 51515R
51515R doesn't xref in Baldwin
HP1 xref's to 51515R in Wix

HOWEVER
The B2-HPG in Baldwin xref's to the 51515R ..BUT it's boasted as "High Performance Glass" media as opposed to the standard "Microglass" deal. It offers a short version ..but it's not in the HPG media.

Something is "unright" here.

 

[427Z06]

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But we're talking apples and oranges delving into theorheticals.

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Theoreticals, Sheoreticals...point is, it can, and does happen all the time.

 

[427Z06]

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When I put Baldwin's idea for a xref back into Wix ..you get a loose filter ..with a 28um nominal rating ..but still with 7-9 gpm flow spec. It's a trans filter.

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If you'll notice, virtually all the 3/4-16 filters are rated at 7-9 gpm flow spec.

In any event, SWHeat hasn't bought in to the idea yet. And I don't see anything wrong with his current method assuming proper hygiene and control of the other variables.


Urr...are you getting a hankering to start a new test?

 

[Gary Allan]

It's like having so many recipes ..and so few cats

 

[Filter guy]

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But we're talking apples and oranges delving into theorheticals.

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Theoreticals, Sheoreticals...point is, it can, and does happen all the time.

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Agreed..it does happen.

But not when the silicon level count comes out in sample testing to be 10, 7, and 9.

That's my point.

I believe most labs will give you a "severe" warning notice when Silicon changes 20 ppm from one sample to the next. This is an indication of the types of problems we've discussed. Hard to see where 10-7-9..means SW Heat had any problems.

And that brings us back to why did his sample show lower ppm when switching to a new air filter when it should have went up and then go up after one change when it should have went down.

Note: like i've said anyone can contact any lab who does oil analysis to ask these simple questions.

 

[SWHeat]

Yeah, I indeed have learned some things that I will do differently. The key here being consistent as much as possible with technique. I was going to move on to a Wix, but may just repeat the three I've already done just to see what will happen. That may be the best idea, then come up with a new "plan" for other filters.

I guess I'll have to be taking the samples in the garage with the door closed.

Interesting read ya'll have turned this thread into.

 

[427Z06]

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But not when the silicon level count comes out in sample testing to be 10, 7, and 9.

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Bullhockey...I bet I've seen dozens of UOAs here where the Si level varied up and down without explanation.

 

[Filter guy]

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But not when the silicon level count comes out in sample testing to be 10, 7, and 9.

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Bullhockey...I bet I've seen dozens of UOAs here where the Si level varied up and down without explanation.

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I take it you didn't read my oil analysis silicon numbers above. They also varied up and down.

But you seemingly don't want to grasp the concept that a brand new filter is as open as it is going to get. And that a used filter after 30,000 miles shouldn't have a higher silicon number than a brand new filter. Especially when it comes to SW heats numbers. 10-7-9.

Which is why I showed the progression of my samples over multiple sample intevals that shows the silicon goes up after each air filter change. Then down to a certain level after 3 or more samples. From there they can vary slightly.

Now look at SW Heats 10 ( 30,000) 7 ( new) 9 (3,000) .

I don't have a problem with the first one of 10. The next two are not consistent with routine oil sample service when a new air filter is changed. A new filter does not out perform one with 30,000 miles. Not when you use an STP of which I have had experience in my samples as well. Champ hasn't changed the media to make it more efficient than a used filter of 30,000 miles. Of that you can take to the bank.

Maybe SW Heat can call his lab and ask their lab techs about this. Let's see what they have to say. If they feel comfortable with the drop of silicon after changing the air filter.

Because you surely aren't going to grasp me explaining it and I have yet to see your personal numbers for oil analysis over a period of time that refutes what i'm saying either.

Maybe if you had your own data to go look at and documented when you changed air filters you'd see the same pattern I have after almost 10 years of consistent oil analysis for every oil change of my personal vehicle. Those numbers are for a 1996 Taurus and a 2003 Taurus...10 years worth. With extended drains every time.


btw..I always notate for the lab when I do change the air filter because the silicon level ALWAYS has gone up and this saves them the time of telling me to check the air induction system for leaks. Back when Champ was doing the testing they would call you if any item registered severe and explain what might cause the problem. I saved Eve a few phone calls by letting them know I changed the air filter.

 

[Nebraskan]

What was said earlier.. about oil running through the engine. Doesn't that make sense? I am sure that there could be some silicone and other particulate matter coming into the engine via air intake, but inside of 15-30 minutes with multipass thought the filter, I would think that the majority of that "which is catchable" would be caught.... kind of sounds like a Salmon flyfishing commercial.

LOL

 

[427Z06]

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I take it you didn't read my oil analysis silicon numbers above. They also varied up and down.

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Of course I saw your numbers. Big F deal...those numbers are associated with your conditions, vehicle, maintenance procedure, sampling technique, lab accuracy, etc, etc.

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But you seemingly don't want to grasp the concept that a brand new filter is as open as it is going to get. And that a used filter after 30,000 miles shouldn't have a higher silicon number than a brand new filter. Especially when it comes to SW heats numbers. 10-7-9.

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You're the one not grasping reality.

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Which is why I showed the progression of my samples over multiple sample intevals that shows the silicon goes up after each air filter change. Then down to a certain level after 3 or more samples. From there they can vary slightly.

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Same as above. You keep repeating this like a parrot.

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Now look at SW Heats 10 ( 30,000) 7 ( new) 9 (3,000).

I don't have a problem with the first one of 10. The next two are not consistent with routine oil sample service when a new air filter is changed. A new filter does not out perform one with 30,000 miles. Not when you use an STP of which I have had experience in my samples as well. Champ hasn't changed the media to make it more efficient than a used filter of 30,000 miles. Of that you can take to the bank.

Maybe SW Heat can call his lab and ask their lab techs about this. Let's see what they have to say. If they feel comfortable with the drop of silicon after changing the air filter.

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So he calls his lab, and they tell him the Silicon level SHOULD drop after a filter change, what does that prove? We all are aware of this already.

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Because you surely aren't going to grasp me explaining it and I have yet to see your personal numbers for oil analysis over a period of time that refutes what i'm saying either.

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You're the one not grasping the reality of the situation. And I do have my own analysis and associated numbers. It's one of the reasons why I know it can happen.

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Maybe if you had your own data to go look at and documented when you changed air filters you'd see the same pattern I have after almost 10 years of consistent oil analysis for every oil change of my personal vehicle. Those numbers are for a 1996 Taurus and a 2003 Taurus...10 years worth. With extended drains every time.

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Again, I do have my own data and I document all my maintenance, which I do myself by the way. I even have maintenance records for cars I no longer own. The data I've collected tells me anomalies do happen.

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btw..I always notate for the lab when I do change the air filter because the silicon level ALWAYS has gone up and this saves them the time of telling me to check the air induction system for leaks. Back when Champ was doing the testing they would call you if any item registered severe and explain what might cause the problem. I saved Eve a few phone calls by letting them know I changed the air filter.

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Blah, blah, blah. By the way, you must not be vary adept at changing air filters, since your silicon levels are terrible for vehicles that old. Looks like you never get a good seal and you probably let all kinds of dirt enter the intake tract when you change your filters, skewing your results.

 

[427Z06]

SWHeat,

Correct me if I wrong.

Silicon: 10 - Driving conditions: Dirt roads in the Arizona desert.
Silicon: 7 - Driving conditions: One week Arizona, trip to Alabama, remainder city/highway driving in Alabama
Silicon: 9 - Driving conditions: Dirt roads 2-3 times a week

Now, with dust in the 0.1 to 100 micron size, even if the filter is older and filtering better, you drive in a much dustier environment, more dust is going to make it into the engine.

 

[Filter guy]

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What was said earlier.. about oil running through the engine. Doesn't that make sense? I am sure that there could be some silicone and other particulate matter coming into the engine via air intake, but inside of 15-30 minutes with multipass thought the filter, I would think that the majority of that "which is catchable" would be caught.... kind of sounds like a Salmon flyfishing commercial.

LOL

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You are so wrong it's not worth explaining.

Most of my oil analysis samples are taken at 6-9,000 miles.

The results come from samples of oil taken---at the end of---that mileage.
The filter has had months to filter the oil. Air continues to flow does it not?

 

[Filter guy]

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SWHeat,

Correct me if I wrong.

Silicon: 10 - Driving conditions: Dirt roads in the Arizona desert.
Silicon: 7 - Driving conditions: One week Arizona, trip to Alabama, remainder city/highway driving in Alabama
Silicon: 9 - Driving conditions: Dirt roads 2-3 times a week

Now, with dust in the 0.1 to 100 micron size, even if the filter is older and filtering better, you drive in a much dustier environment, more dust is going to make it into the engine.

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You also said this above: "So he calls his lab, and they tell him the Silicon level SHOULD drop after a filter change, what does that prove? We all are aware of this already."



You may have convinced yourself of this but --we--- are not convinced. What it proves is that there was something wrong with his sample report if the lab agrees the sample should have gone UP after he switched air filters. And it should be retested. But you would never admit the lab would need to resample would you? No you'd rather argue.


You have a lot of knowledge about various things but you are the most argumentative person on this forum. So much so, I think you'd rather argue to prove something to yourself.

And your full of beans on this subject.

Regardless of driving condition a new air filter WILL let through more contaminant. Fact.

SWHeats numbers show no leaks or anomalies that would indicate any problem with to much contaminant getting through from his three samples. Fact.

But when he changed air filters his silicon should have went up. Fact.

I have driven in dusty conditions myself. You make it sound as if that is the be all end all. I have driven freeways and city driving. Made not one iota difference in a new air filter showing increased silicon levels. Never..i'll repeat never..did the silicon level ever go down after change of air filter. But I never had any leak or problem. I did use different oils, petroleum based, then switched to semi-synthetic in my 1996 Taurus. Switched to Mobil 1 in my 2003 Taurus.

I have looked at loads of oil anylsis reports because we used to sell that service. I have seen fleet after fleet of heavy duty engine analysis reports. And the same held true for them. When they changed the air filter(s) the silicon went up.


Any lab who does analysis and sees thousand of samples per year can determine when silicon goes up to much because of some problem in air induction as opposed to just changing the air filter.

And I am willing to state --for the record- that any lab will say it is not normal for silicon to go down after changing the air filter, when there was no problem in the previous sample ( as with the one of 10 at 30,000 miles) regardless of the "air quality" conditions of where the car was driven.

So there you go..anyone want to call their lab and ask instead of 427Z06 bleating on and prove me wrong.

Go for it..

Post what lab you called and what the "experts" say.

 

[SWHeat]

427Z06: You are correct. That is the accurate scenario. Dust storms and all in Yuma, AZ.

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And I am willing to state --for the record- that any lab will say it is not normal for silicon to go down after changing the air filter, when there was no problem in the previous sample ( as with the one of 10 at 30,000 miles) regardless of the "air quality" conditions of where the car was driven.

So there you go..anyone want to call their lab and ask instead of 427Z06 bleating on and prove me wrong.

Go for it..

Post what lab you called and what the "experts" say.

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Filter Guy,

I'm sure there is some rational explination. Like, maybe....I screwed up the oil sample technique....or blackstone labs testing was +/- 7.1 reproducable error...or the fiter box was not sealed as well with the first fitler as it was with the second....or the filter was way too old and had been on over year and maybe the rubber seal was worn due to 120 degree heat from the prior summer....or....or....or

Anyway, you get the point.

Most likely was the seal to the filter housing...it is a pain to get on square if you don't take off the hose to the throttle body first, set the filter in right and tight (nice and square), batten it down, then re-attach the hose to the throttle body.

Now, why the new one went up after being in use........???? I have no idea as it has not been touched since being put on with the above extra step. Lastest oil sample taken with a SureDrain (first time use) with sump left intact, slower flow, not in the middle of the drain (as I kept the sump), only after 1/4 quart drained vs. about two quarts with the other samples. Otherwise??? Go figure.

While I've got some ya'lls attention [see the use of ya'll...I'm getting localized]. Tell me, why would the insoluable level go from 0.2 (K&N), 0.3 (Baldwin), and 0.4 for the PureOne? That does not make sense to me either.