Particle Count Comparisons! Fram Ultra vs K&P Reusable Stainless Mesh oil filter

[ZeeOSix]

Particles = wear
More and bigger particles = more wear

Yes, more particles means more wear, and cleaner oil means less particles to cause wear.

But as both studies discussed above in this thread show, it's the particles that are 20 microns and smaller that cause the most wear. That's why I like oil filters that are at least 95% @ 20u, and more so ones that are 99+% @ 20u.

 

[RDMgr]

There have been some examples on BITOG where there was massive engine wear going on, so much that many large metal particles were being seen in the oil filter media, but the wear metals in the UOA didn't bump up very much at all. It wasn't like a giant red flag popping up on the UOA. The UOA wear metals had to be tracked carefully over many UOAs to see the slight wear metal uptick which was the result of major wear going on. A UOA very insensitive to changes in engine wear metals because the UOA can only see wear debris smaller than 5-7 microns. Cutting open the oil filter for careful inspectioin is the best first step to detect anything major going on with engine wear.

5-7 micron limit is for ICP and is usually considered to be normal rubbing wear. Other analytical methods will detect up to about 25 microns. PQI allows estimation of particle to an unlimited size. EDXRF quantifies total wear regardless of particle size. Analytical ferrography allows for large particle morphology analysis. If you have a high level of 5-7 micron particles with no larger particles you may just have a high level of lubricant related normal rubbing wear. If you also have large particles you may have an abnormal wear condition.

For a more meaningful analysis, methods should be used in combination such as ICP and PQI. Another example of this is additive metal levels. An elemental analysis may show no depletion however FT-IR may indicate that the element bearing compound is not in a form that is effective for its intended purpose after some time in service.

 

[wpod]

Efficient air cleaner, well sealed intake system, high efficiency oil filter if you're doing OCIs over say 7500 miles. The shorter the OCI, the less important the filter efficiency. The longer the OCI, the more important the filter efficiency. If you did 500-800 mile OCIs on a well broke-in engine, you wouldn't need much of an oil filter.

The main goal is to keep the abrasive wear due to contaminated oil down to a minimum, so a dirtier sump for less miles could be equal to a cleaner sump with more miles. The cleaner the oil, and the less the number of gallons of oil pumped through the oiling system over an OCI means less wear due to dirty oil.

100% sgree except a half way decent maintained engine usually outlasts the rest of the vehicle.

 

[ZeeOSix]

100% sgree except a half way decent maintained engine usually outlasts the rest of the vehicle.

I might as well start smoking and drinking like a fiend, and eat tons of junk food since I'll probably get put out of commission some other way instead. Part of my "decent maintained" vehicle is using high efficiency oil filters to keep the oil cleaner than not.

 

[ZeeOSix]

@dezlpwr - before you clean the K&P filter, can you see any visible debris on the dirty side of the screen? Maybe any caught debris is deep in the inner folds of the pleats and hard to see (?). See any signs of captured debris coming off when cleaning it? Wondering if any kind of debris "cake layer" forms anywhere on the dirty side of the screen. If so, it might help the efficiency increase some with use, like a K&N air filter can as it loads up.

I'm assuming there are multiple layers of the 35μ screen to give the screen "media" some depth, or is it just one layer?

What's the longest OCI you've done with a K&P?

 

[bbhero]

Please tell me that isn’t the infamous bus study.

I would not get too excited over particle counts, it seems the OP made a good effort in maintaining consistency but fairly small sample differences seem to impact results appreciably.

The bus study is like Freddy Krueger or Jason from all those movies…

Keeps coming back from the dead ALL the TIME.

I think it is helpful to a decent degree. But I also think David Newton has made some valid arguments against it being the end all and be all of analysis regarding this topic,

 

[ZeeOSix]

The bus study is like Freddy Krueger or Jason from all those movies…

Think he was thinking of the GM Study instead of the Bus Study. Bus Study wasn't accelerated.

 

[dezlpwr]

@dezlpwr - before you clean the K&P filter, can you see any visible debris on the dirty side of the screen? Maybe any caught debris is deep in the inner folds of the pleats and hard to see (?). See any signs of captured debris coming off when cleaning it? Wondering if any kind of debris "cake layer" forms anywhere on the dirty side of the screen. If so, it might help the efficiency increase some with use, like a K&N air filter can as it loads up.

I'm assuming there are multiple layers of the 35μ screen to give the screen "media" some depth, or is it just one layer?

What's the longest OCI you've done with a K&P?

I already cleaned it when I removed it. A couple black "specks" of something in media and nothing on strong magnet other than smudge of grey when I ran my finger across it. Have never gone over 3000mi using this filter.

 

[MASCOT]

Howdy,
New guy here. FULL Disclosure. I almost drank the kool-aid. I ride a Harley. My buddies all ride Harleys.
I do my own oil changes. I don't use the HD oil. It might be the same oil as other branded oils? ( HD doesn't make their own oil. I've tried to research here and other sites about who makes HD oil. HD is not a formulator, the HD oil is from a blender). I just refuse to pay more for the HD name. Now, this is NOT about oil. This is about oil filters. HD doesn't make their own filter either. Another company is making the filter, slap the HD logo on, pay more. go to the dealer for oil change and pay WAY more then DIY.
I use a middle of the road brand of oil. Not gonna tell....this is about oil FILTERS. I change oil every 5K miles. I use the K&N 171c oil filter,
WHY? Because it has the 17mm nut on the end of it. Where the oil filter is located is very hard to get to. Yes, the oil filter cap to fit over a stock type filter can work. But the clearances to get in the area is very tight. So I use the K&N because it has the 17mm nut, easy to get to to break loose and spin off.
Two other buddies go to HD and pay for HD oil, filter and service.
Another guy is having a motor built and that shop talked him into the reusable oil filter. The brand doesn't matter, yes it does to someone. The shop said it filters down to 3 microns, and with the finned housing will cool off oil better?
I've spent hours on this site going down a rabbit hole reading about microns, efficiency, by-pass, etc.

One very interesting comment I saw was if a rating of 99.0 vs 99.9 ( i'm paraphrasing), the lower rating would take 4 passes to filter out the same amount. New oil change, maybe some particles are loose, and then within a few minutes ( I saw the article that rated the 5 brands and how long it took to reach the same level of filtering). That means that once the oil is circulated and cleaned/ filtered, then the level is consistent? I use to build race engines many many years ago. Two times when the engine produces lots of particles: when it is brand new, and when it is worn out. If an engine is NOT worn out, AND a good air filter, and the oil is changed on a regular basis (not broken down), then it seems to me that its status quo?

Back to oil filter.
If I buy the filter with the nut, because I want it, $20 ( inc tax) and change every 5K miles.
The CNC reusable is $160-$250. (Flo or K&P
8 filters x $20 = $160 ( 40k miles, 3.5 years. ROI ? )

Does anyone know of a Harley oil filter other then K&N that has the 17mm nut?

 

[kschachn]

Howdy,
New guy here. FULL Disclosure. I almost drank the kool-aid. I ride a Harley. My buddies all ride Harleys.
I do my own oil changes. I don't use the HD oil. It might be the same oil as other branded oils? ( HD doesn't make their own oil. I've tried to research here and other sites about who makes HD oil. HD is not a formulator, the HD oil is from a blender). I just refuse to pay more for the HD name. Now, this is NOT about oil. This is about oil filters. HD doesn't make their own filter either. Another company is making the filter, slap the HD logo on, pay more. go to the dealer for oil change and pay WAY more then DIY.
I use a middle of the road brand of oil. Not gonna tell....this is about oil FILTERS. I change oil every 5K miles. I use the K&N 171c oil filter,
WHY? Because it has the 17mm nut on the end of it. Where the oil filter is located is very hard to get to. Yes, the oil filter cap to fit over a stock type filter can work. But the clearances to get in the area is very tight. So I use the K&N because it has the 17mm nut, easy to get to to break loose and spin off.
Two other buddies go to HD and pay for HD oil, filter and service.
Another guy is having a motor built and that shop talked him into the reusable oil filter. The brand doesn't matter, yes it does to someone. The shop said it filters down to 3 microns, and with the finned housing will cool off oil better?
I've spent hours on this site going down a rabbit hole reading about microns, efficiency, by-pass, etc.

One very interesting comment I saw was if a rating of 99.0 vs 99.9 ( i'm paraphrasing), the lower rating would take 4 passes to filter out the same amount. New oil change, maybe some particles are loose, and then within a few minutes ( I saw the article that rated the 5 brands and how long it took to reach the same level of filtering). That means that once the oil is circulated and cleaned/ filtered, then the level is consistent? I use to build race engines many many years ago. Two times when the engine produces lots of particles: when it is brand new, and when it is worn out. If an engine is NOT worn out, AND a good air filter, and the oil is changed on a regular basis (not broken down), then it seems to me that its status quo?

Back to oil filter.
If I buy the filter with the nut, because I want it, $20 ( inc tax) and change every 5K miles.
The CNC reusable is $160-$250. (Flo or K&P
8 filters x $20 = $160 ( 40k miles, 3.5 years. ROI ? )

Does anyone know of a Harley oil filter other then K&N that has the 17mm nut?

Why did you post in this thread?

 

[MASCOT]

Why did you post in this thread?

Sorry? maybe a mod or admin will move...

 

[Patman]

Sorry? maybe a mod or admin will move...

I’m not even sure where you want it to be moved to. Just create a new topic and then I will delete that post

 

[ZeeOSix]

Probably posted in this thread because of the metal mesh oil filter parts of this post.