PAO vs Esters in an MTF....

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I read somewhere that because of the polarity of the ester molecules, that they can compete with the more effective anti-wear additives at the metal surface if the ester is in too high of concentration. I don't know that for a fact however.
 
I have read two competing theories on ester polarity and additive activity/competition:

One theory says the esters compete with polar additives, sort of like pushing them out of way for their own attraction. Kinda like 'cutting-in-line.'

The other theory says that the polarity of some esters "assist" in helping additives attract or attach themselves to metal surfaces.

I happen to believe the latter theory in terms of molecular kinetics and coulomb forces.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule

The way this sentence is stated, you are wanting information on which basestocks to use in a formulation for an MTF.

Did you mean to actually convey something entirely different?
confused2.gif



I can't tell when you are being purposely obtuse and when you are sincerely not comprehending. The question was rather clear. Surely there are times/situations when a PAO makes for a better MTL than an ester. Likewise, I'm sure there are times when Esters present a better choice. Do these situations exist? If so, please expound on those pros and cons.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?

What viscosities of PAOs?



confused2.gif



Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.

I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.

but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.


Most of the higher end synthetic MTFs contain a mix of GroupIII, IV, and V base oils.

The base oils mainly affect low temperature shifter drag and maintain a better fluid film at higher temperatures due to their inherent VI.

It is the additive package that will affect your synchro engagement.

I would concentrate on finding a dedicated MTF that has a viscosity close to your tranny spec, and it appears the Redline MTL or the Amsoil MTF is close.

See:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/2

specifically post #2813713.


Originally Posted By: badtlc
I can't tell when you are being purposely obtuse and when you are sincerely not comprehending. The question was rather clear. Surely there are times/situations when a PAO makes for a better MTL than an ester. Likewise, I'm sure there are times when Esters present a better choice. Do these situations exist? If so, please expound on those pros and cons.


Your question was the only obtuse statement in this thread and it was answered above.

Your assumptions about what base oils are used in the products mentioned are incorrect.

No SINGLE API base oil type is used in high-end, synthetic MTLs as you have assumed, marketing hype discounted.

Each base oil type presents its own advantage to the mix for an appropriate cost/benefits ratio.

Again, maybe you could possibly clarify your question.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule

Again, maybe you could possibly clarify your question.




Discuss the benefits and drawbacks of using PAOs and Esters in an MTL. I made no assumptions that you have claimed.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
badtlc - So you have some MTF and you want to know if you should add PAO or esters? What types of esters and what viscosities?

What viscosities of PAOs?



confused2.gif



Just trying to figure out what I want to look for in my next MTF. Right now I like Redline MTL but I assume it is mostly esters and I'd like to try something with a bit better severe cold properties.

I am also considering Synchromax and Pentosin MTF2 but I think these are mainly PAO fluids. Just curious what differentiates their real world properties when it comes to the base.

but I don't want to get into specific fluids. I'd just like to know what are the pros and cons of each in MTF if there is such a thing. I thought I had read an article a while back trying to show conventional was the best fluid for an MTX but I don't remember why and I don't remember if it was looking at PAO or esters.


Most of the higher end synthetic MTFs contain a mix of GroupIII, IV, and V base oils.

The base oils mainly affect low temperature shifter drag and maintain a better fluid film at higher temperatures due to their inherent VI.

It is the additive package that will affect your synchro engagement.

I would concentrate on finding a dedicated MTF that has a viscosity close to your tranny spec, and it appears the Redline MTL or the Amsoil MTF is close.

See:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/2

specifically post #2813713.


Originally Posted By: badtlc
I can't tell when you are being purposely obtuse and when you are sincerely not comprehending. The question was rather clear. Surely there are times/situations when a PAO makes for a better MTL than an ester. Likewise, I'm sure there are times when Esters present a better choice. Do these situations exist? If so, please expound on those pros and cons.


Your question was the only obtuse statement in this thread and it was answered above.

Your assumptions about what base oils are used in the products mentioned are incorrect.

No SINGLE API base oil type is used in high-end, synthetic MTLs as you have assumed, marketing hype discounted.

Each base oil type presents its own advantage to the mix for an appropriate cost/benefits ratio.

Again, maybe you could possibly clarify your question.




I think that you should consider giving up on this my friend.
 
The answer is: ...it depends. A possibly better question to ask is what testing demonstrates a superior product in this application. Viscosity? FZG? Oxidation testing?
What tests show differentiation in dual clutch transmissions? If you have the best test results for the most valid functions, you can make the fluid out of katsup.
 
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