One size filter fits all grades

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Many mfrs allow 30wt and 40wt multi-grade motor oils in their engines. That's a WIDE viscosity range, around 10cst to 15cst.

Now I see how the engine doesn't see what the flow rate in the filter is so why should I care?
 
I think what he is saying/asking is that since we don't know the flow rate of our oil filters, we are too involved with the flow rate of different viscosities of the motor oil.
 
Thats why the OEM gives us guidelines though. They know what the engine will flow and what its needs are.
 
Given that the oil pump is positive displacement, the pump will shift a defined volume per revolution regardless of the filter.

A more restrictive filter will have a greater pressure drop.

A hugely restrictive filter will open the pump bypass, and only then will flow reduce to the bearings.
 
Originally Posted By: mitchcoyote
I don't understand your question... Reword your post please....


Sorry. Coffee hadn't kicked in yet. Why do mfrs spec the same filter for 10w-40 that's much thicker than 5w30?

(Is the answer?)An engine doesn't see the flow rate of a filter. When an allowed grade is used, the correct volume of oil is moved regardless of a filters actual flow rate.
 
The only time viscosity makes much difference when moving away from the recommendations in the owner's manual, is cold weather. Going too thin in high temps is not as bad as going too thick when it's really cold. A 5w-20 will give better overall lubrication in the hottest weather than a 10w-40 will when it's below zero. So a 5w-20 could actually be considered for many as a universal year-round oil, but not a 10w-40 if it's cold part of the year.
 
Originally Posted By: jorton


(Is the answer?)An engine doesn't see the flow rate of a filter. When an allowed grade is used, the correct volume of oil is moved regardless of a filters actual flow rate.


Shannow said it ..but I'll restate your assertion.

A pound of lead and a pound of feathers both weight a pound (2-5gpm is 2-5gpm whether it's a 30 weight or a 40 weight)

Seems to reason, no? ..a little different if you state it this way.

Which is easier/harder to move, a gallon of water ..or a gallon of lead?


..but don't shrug your personal responsibility for viscosity selection by blaming the filter and the engine ..stating that "they don't care, why should I
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Aren't we oversimplifying here? There is more than one scenario to reivew.

Consider that the relief on the oil pump is set to an specified pressure (not "absolute" in deffinition of pressures in engineering speak, but more like "fixed" in terms of gearhead talk). In other words, the pump relief may be set to say 150 psi. Unless the backpressue gets to 150 psi, the relief will never open.

The oil filter may or may not have a bypass valve in it. The bypass valve works on the concept of pressure differential, and not an absolute "fixed" concept.

If there is no bypass valve in the filter, the only relief available in the system is the pump relief (or some component failure in the system like a burst filter housing or a blown seal). In this case, the relief will only open if the total system backpressure is, in this example, 120 psi. As long as the backpressue is not exceeded, the filter will flow as much or as little as the pump provides, assuming the filter's total flow design is greater than the engines flow design. In a very wide assumption for my example, it's typical for a filter to be rated around 7-9 gpm, but the pump may only be putting out 3-4 gpm, so the flow of the filter is not an issue.

If the filter does have a bypass valve, then you must consider the differential pressue and total system pressue seperately. If the filter has a bypass setting of 15 psid, then as long as it doesn't see greater than 15 psid, the bypass won't open.

Two examples to consider.

Ex 1) the engine pump relief is set at 120 psi, and the usual pressure in the system is 50 psi at steady cruise. The pump relief won't open. But now think of the filter bypass. If that 50 psi reading is taken upstream of the filter, and the media is blinded off to a point where more than 15 psi exists across the media, then the BYPASS valve will open on the filter, even though the relief valve in the pump didn't open. It would take a LOT of stuff to plug the filter media like this, but that's why it exists. It keeps the oil flowing to the bearings, although unfiltered. If the filter had no bypass valve, and it plugged off to the point where there was a greater and greater pressue, it would eventually build up to the 120 psi and the pump relief would open. The problem with this is that oil which is bled off at the pump relief never gets to the bearings; it's dumped right back to the sump (pan). If the filter has a bypass valve, it would open on a 15 psid, and the bearings will be getting "dirty" oil, but that's a heck of a lot better than little to no oil at all.

Also, in this scenario, consider if you have an actual gage on your dash or just a little red light. A gage can show you a low or high pressure, but a light only typically comes on when low pressue is sensed. If you have just a light, and you have an overly high pressure, you'll not know it. Even with a gage, you would likely see a high pressue reading on your dash gage, and you might assume that the engine is getting a lot of oil, but in actuality, the engine bearings are getting little to no oil at all because the pump is dumping right back to the sump; NOT GOOD! That's why a gage is better than a light, and why gages are marked with both an upper and lower acceptable range.

Ex 2) on the other hand, consider the system at start up and/or during the first few minutes of operation. The oil is very thick. The pump is trying like heck to push the oil. The oil is not only thick on the upstream side of the filter media, but on the downstream side as well. So even though you might see 90 psi at the "gage" where the pressue sending unit is, you're also experiencing a very high pressue all through the system. So the filter bypass valve is NOT open because (for the sake of example here) the gage might be showing 90 psi on the upstream side, and the downstream side might be at 85 psi. Because there is not a 15 psi differential, the bypass valve will not open. Now if for some reason the pressue were to spike (say you revved up the engine to 6k rpm by accident) the pressue might spike at the pump relief (and open), even though the bypass valve in the filter didn't see a 15 psi DIFFERENTIAL, and therefore didn't open.

The pump relief and oil filter bypass valves operate in concert with each other, but they each are there to protect your engine from two different scenarios. The pump relief is just that; it protects the pump from damage due to an overpressure condition. The filter bypass is there to protect the filter itself, and also the engine, by allowing dirty oil to flow, because dirty oil flow is better than no oil flow.

Flow is flow; pressure is pressue. They are linked by several physical properties. They have direct interaction, but they also have independent characteristics which cannot be ignored. You must be careful to consider the whole system and it's design, looking at individual components as well as features interdependent.
 
I should have stated also that a very critical concept to consider in the pump relief is how much flow is diverted by the pump relief in comparison to the total flow into the normal oil path. It is not correct to assume the total pressure would drop to zero downstream of the pump relief, but it it correct to assume that the total oil flow is directly dependent upon the flow rating of the normal oil pathway versus the flow rating of the oil pump relief. There are so many different design criteria to consider for each engine design that it's difficult to generalize here. I made some statements that in no way would apply to all designs. It's possible that if the oil pump relief opens, there will still be some residual pressue to the engine oil pathways, but not near what would be considered "typical".

The key concept to keep in mind in automotive engine applications is that the engine oil pump relief is designed with both a high pressure and high flow in mind so that the oil pressue dumps off and doesn't keeping building system pressue downstream. It's a last ditch effort to save the pump and filter canister and pressurized oil seals. It's a very undesirable condition, but more desirable than a busrt oil filter or sheared pump drive.
 
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