20 Grades - Oil Consumption - NOACK - Stuck Rings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote:
The 2012 Civic requires a quart every 8,000 miles. It has received Mobil 1 or Mobil 1 EP 0w20 since new at 6,000 mile intervals. The consumption did not start until about 50k.


This is interesting, but I would NOT attribute this to NOACK at all bc the NOACK for M1 0w20 is around 10%, which is what MB requires for their 229.5 spec. 10% NOACK for a 0w20 is outstanding.

I think Honda has some engine/ring issues. It's a very common complaint among Honda owners.

I am curious what could be causing it in this case Critic.
smile.gif
 
BD,

I know over the decades you guys have shut down Isle of Grain and Llandarcy and flogged off Grangemouth, but there must still be someone in your organisation that knows one end of an oil refinery from the other. Find him and check he still knows how a crude unit and a hydrotreater steam stripper unit work. Then show him a typical Seq IIIG or TU5 report. If he's a half decent chemical engineer, he will twig what's happening in a heart beat and explain it to you slowly and patiently. When you finally see the light, it will be like a revelation from God!
 
Originally Posted By: buster
The CAP on NOACK for GF-2 was 22%. It's now 15%, which is better. Most synthetics fall in the 8-12% range today. Your top tier 0w20's are around 10-11%. I don't know of any 0w20 that is div>


Redline
 
I blame low tension rings for most of the oil loss people are seeing, along with SOME 20 grades that are blended with Group II+ base oils.

The reality is, oils today have lower volatility than ever before. As I said, your top tie full syn are between 8-12%, lower than they have ever been. Only your pure PAO will be around 5%.

The NOACK trend has been going down, not up.

*Redline is a strange oil. Does poorly on the TEOST due to all the Moly (type) they use. Barely passed it. It also uses way too much Ca which consensus is showing is not good for LSPI issues. Amsoil included.
 
calcium is good for diesels though.

There must be a few redline users about. Anybody who had issues contributable to the TEOST results?

I don't like the redline price though... 1 quart costs more than a complete oil change for my car using PAO/Ester full synth.
 
When the oil vaporizes does it act like water and leave the minerals behind?
 
I'm a little skeptical about the Honda engine claim. Maybe it isn't every engine.
I have an 07 J30A V6 and it uses less than 1/2 quart per 12-13K oil change. It used to use no oil at all. I've used M1 0w-20 (first AFE and now EP) or M1 5w-20 EP for all if its life.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
When the oil vaporizes does it act like water and leave the minerals behind?


A while back on one of the Ford forums, I saw that someone had posted a Blackstone analysis of the stuff he'd caught in his catch can. It was predominantly base oil. This would suggest that your nice analogy is correct...
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: CT8
When the oil vaporizes does it act like water and leave the minerals behind?


A while back on one of the Ford forums, I saw that someone had posted a Blackstone analysis of the stuff he'd caught in his catch can. It was predominantly base oil. This would suggest that your nice analogy is correct...


Looked at from the other side it's proven also.

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer12_wong.pdf

Slide 12 shows the enrichment of the additives in the top ring groove where the oil is going missing.

Note that the Zn/P show less enrichment, meaning that they are more volatile than the Ca/Mg
 
Oil in the pan has to evaporate at a different rate than oil left on the crosshatch at the top of the cylinder. The zinc and Phos are at much lower levels to begin with, could that be the reason for the different levels . Are the additives consumed during combustion? I never gave it any thought,
 
Originally Posted By: NO2
I'm a little skeptical about the Honda engine claim. Maybe it isn't every engine.
I have an 07 J30A V6 and it uses less than 1/2 quart per 12-13K oil change. It used to use no oil at all. I've used M1 0w-20 (first AFE and now EP) or M1 5w-20 EP for all if its life.


I have to agree with you; my 2001 J30 has 170,000 miles on the clock and doesn't used even a half quart during a 10,000 mile OCI, and that with 0W-20 Castrol Edge in it.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Oil in the pan has to evaporate at a different rate than oil left on the crosshatch at the top of the cylinder. The zinc and Phos are at much lower levels to begin with, could that be the reason for the different levels . Are the additives consumed during combustion? I never gave it any thought,


Enrichment Factor = Concentration of element in ring-pack zone relative to concentration of element in sump.

Wouldn't the concentration of zddp be lower because more of it isused in the ring pack zone? I'd expect that most of the zddp in the oil is consumed/converted there. phosphate glass wouldn't be in the sampled oil?
 
You guys have lost me with the science behind this, but I will say that my wife's 2008 Accord used a quart every 1500 miles from day one, the pair of 2013 Civics never needed to have any added between changes, the 2014 Accord used a quart every 1000 miles for the first 5000 miles or so and hasn't used any since, and the 2016 CR-V only has 250 miles on it, so it's too early to say if it'll use oil or not. All 4 cylinder, all using either ow20 synth blend or 5w20 conventional except the 2008, which was fed 5w30 conventional.
Not a very big sample, but that has been my personal experience.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: KingCake
1. Throw you consumer reports in the garbage.
2. Hondas use oil off the lot. Nothing to do with oil.
3. Most of the 'deposit issues' are with direct injection engines.


Your 2. is news to me and the eight Hondas we've owned.
You might be well advised to avoid posting when you don't know what you're talking about.
Any decently maintained Honda doesn't require any adds during the course of an OCI, or that has at least been my experience in more than a million miles with these engines in our personal use.

There are 3 Hondas that have been under my car since new (or very low mileage). 2 out of the 3 vehicles require top-offs between services once they passed the 50-60k mark.

The 2012 Civic requires a quart every 8,000 miles. It has received Mobil 1 or Mobil 1 EP 0w20 since new at 6,000 mile intervals. The consumption did not start until about 50k.

The 2011 Accord I4 needs a quart every 6,000 miles. It has always received 0w20 synthetic or Honda 0w20 synthetic blend per the Maint Minder, which is about every 10,000 miles. The consumption started at about 60k on this car.


Our old Hondas never had consumption out to as much as 200K+, so adds were never needed.
Based upon what you've posted, and you've mentioned this before, the '12 may make a liar out of me.
The car will hit 50K in the next month or two and should reach 60K by the time its fourth anniversary from delivery new rolls around in November.
I'll be sure and let you know if I start seeing any oil consumption by then. If not, then this may end up being yet another Honda that uses no noticeable amount of oil. If it does start showing enough consumption that adds are required, I'll simply run through the balance of the 0W-20 stash I have and move on to a 5W-20 and then a 5W-30.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top