My question is not old standards vs new standards. Instead, my question is wether oil late in an OCI is somehow better than earlier in the cycle. If wear is not linear on an oil change cycle, then is used oil somehow better than new oil? -at least until TBN is low? If you look at total wear metals for short OCI and total wear for long OCI, on the surface it may look like long OCI has less wear. I assume that some of the wear metals are going out the exhause or through various seals and gaskets, but should we leave well enough alone once the oil is in the engine. Are moderately long OCIs really the way to baby your engine?
old oil better than new oil
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After reading a LOT of UOA's etc, etc, I have basically come to that "actionable" behavior. To me, it is the lesson hidden in plain sight. I am mildly amused that others have come to the same conclusion.
..."Are moderately long OCIs really the way to baby your engine?"
Specifically, I run the OEM recommended OCI during warranty, which for my latest vehicles 2001/2003/2004 has been respectively 15,000/10,000/10,000. After warranty, I run/will run 15,000/25,000/20,000, again respectively.
I have also run 15,000 mile OCI's on Toyota Landcruisers (5) for a long time (since 1987) and a few miles 610,000 miles). So I have been doing this even before coming to Bobstheoilguy.
As you would probably agree, there are a plethora of factors which "conspire" (against this behavior") against this.
..."Are moderately long OCIs really the way to baby your engine?"
Specifically, I run the OEM recommended OCI during warranty, which for my latest vehicles 2001/2003/2004 has been respectively 15,000/10,000/10,000. After warranty, I run/will run 15,000/25,000/20,000, again respectively.
I have also run 15,000 mile OCI's on Toyota Landcruisers (5) for a long time (since 1987) and a few miles 610,000 miles). So I have been doing this even before coming to Bobstheoilguy.
As you would probably agree, there are a plethora of factors which "conspire" (against this behavior") against this.
There have been some studies to show as oil has miles on it engine wear goes down.
MolaKule
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MY theory has been that with new oil, the fresh and active detergents starts removing deposits, including metals deposited before the oil change, so the old material is then dispersed into the new oil.
Now as the additives wane from decomposition (detergents and dispersants are reduced in activity/effectivity) through oil aging, the oil has picked up about as much material as it can (loading), oxidizes, and becomes thicker.
So when new oil is introduced, the old crud is whisked up and dispersed into the new oil, which shows higher wear metal content initially, but tapers off as the oil ages.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000021
So new oil is always much better than old oil.
Now as the additives wane from decomposition (detergents and dispersants are reduced in activity/effectivity) through oil aging, the oil has picked up about as much material as it can (loading), oxidizes, and becomes thicker.
So when new oil is introduced, the old crud is whisked up and dispersed into the new oil, which shows higher wear metal content initially, but tapers off as the oil ages.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000021
So new oil is always much better than old oil.
"MY theory has been that with new oil, the fresh and active detergents starts removing deposits, including metals deposited before the oil change, so the old material is then dispersed into the new oil.
Now as the additives wane from decomposition (detergents and dispersants are reduced in activity/effectivity) through oil aging, the oil has picked up about as much material as it can (loading), oxidizes, and becomes thicker.
So when new oil is introduced, the old crud is whisked up and dispersed into the new oil, which shows higher wear metal content initially, but tapers off as the oil ages.
new oil is always much better than old oil."
I agree 200% sound logic and verifiable as I have seen this with monitoring UOA on fleets.
bruce
Now as the additives wane from decomposition (detergents and dispersants are reduced in activity/effectivity) through oil aging, the oil has picked up about as much material as it can (loading), oxidizes, and becomes thicker.
So when new oil is introduced, the old crud is whisked up and dispersed into the new oil, which shows higher wear metal content initially, but tapers off as the oil ages.
new oil is always much better than old oil."
I agree 200% sound logic and verifiable as I have seen this with monitoring UOA on fleets.
bruce
Bruce381,
"I agree 200% sound logic and verifiable as I have seen this with monitoring UOA on fleets."
How did/would you verify wear was lower on new oil vs old oil? I don't understand how wear metals increase early in the cycle and level-off late in the cycle and your UOA on fleets show that this phenomenon is due to deposit removal. Please elaborate/explain.
"I agree 200% sound logic and verifiable as I have seen this with monitoring UOA on fleets."
How did/would you verify wear was lower on new oil vs old oil? I don't understand how wear metals increase early in the cycle and level-off late in the cycle and your UOA on fleets show that this phenomenon is due to deposit removal. Please elaborate/explain.
Does anyone here know if wear metals rise after a dose of AutoRx in an otherwise "clean" engine? Is there some other product that supplements or rejuvinates the add package so that one could test MolaKule's hypothesis mid OCI? Has anyone already done this?
It would be even more informative if individual components could be added. For example, I think that TBN may be linked to this phenomenon. It (TBN) falls rapidly in the first 2K or so. This fall seems to be correlated with the wear metal rise.
It would be even more informative if individual components could be added. For example, I think that TBN may be linked to this phenomenon. It (TBN) falls rapidly in the first 2K or so. This fall seems to be correlated with the wear metal rise.
The wear on an engine will follow the typical "bathtub" curve where the wear "failure" is high at the start "infant mortality" and then stabilizes at a low level until wearout occurs when it again rises to a high level "failure". By the way Mechanics Illustrated had a study a long time ago showing that new engines broke in faster and cooler when used oil was put in them from the start.
I agee with your point, Dr T. - same point that Molakule & Bruce were making.
The wear rate is more linear, while it's the rate of detectable particles in the oil stream that jumps with new oil.
And as explained by Molakule, it's the solvency & fresh detergent/dispersant additives that are extracting the pre-existing wear particles from the various engine wear surfaces & oil galleys.
The wear rate is more linear, while it's the rate of detectable particles in the oil stream that jumps with new oil.
And as explained by Molakule, it's the solvency & fresh detergent/dispersant additives that are extracting the pre-existing wear particles from the various engine wear surfaces & oil galleys.
So, if we were to do a few very short OCIs (so that we get everything clean via fresh deternent/dispersants) and then watch the oil age, we would see linear increases in wear metals. Has anyone already done that?
Molakule and bruce381:
Do you have access to SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119? I do not so I cannot quote from it directly, I can only remark that it is supposedly a technical paper from Ford Motor Company and Conoco-Phillips showing that wear is lower with older oil than with brand-new oil. Can anyone with access to that paper elaborate for the rest of us?
If your hypothesis was the actuality, shouldn't we be able to test it by looking at UOAs of ARX clean and/or rinse cycles and comparing them with the previous UOA in that vehicle?
Do you have access to SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119? I do not so I cannot quote from it directly, I can only remark that it is supposedly a technical paper from Ford Motor Company and Conoco-Phillips showing that wear is lower with older oil than with brand-new oil. Can anyone with access to that paper elaborate for the rest of us?
If your hypothesis was the actuality, shouldn't we be able to test it by looking at UOAs of ARX clean and/or rinse cycles and comparing them with the previous UOA in that vehicle?
Iain
Unfortunately Doug is no longer posting but mentioned this in his article
http://www.landsharkoz.com/tech/doug/ttlub_10.htm
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/ttoday/spring98/trace.htm
Unfortunately Doug is no longer posting but mentioned this in his article
http://www.landsharkoz.com/tech/doug/ttlub_10.htm
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/ttoday/spring98/trace.htm
OK, so we have laborotory test from a well respected research organization (Southwest Research) that completely contradict a couple of BITOG's well respected experts (Mola and Bruce).
Hmm.. What is the answer?
Hmm.. What is the answer?
One of the initial recommendations in the Oak Ridge study below was to add abrasives to new oil in an attemept to make a used oil.
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
...the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/high-strength/4a_improved_friction.pdf
Oil Condition
Previous DOE-sponsored research at Cummins Engine Company indicated that fresh and EC oil can make differences in friction and wear of coatings for engine materials. Therefore, it was important in this work to identify the type of used oil or EC lubricant surrogate that could be used in a standard test for candidate ring and liner materials and surface treatments. Figure 1 shows the effect of applied test load on the wear rates (μm/h) for chrome-plated diesel engine piston rings sliding against cast iron liner materials. The cast iron was prepared to simulate cylinder bores using the finishing method noted earlier. Used diesel engine oil from a commercial engine test, heated to 100ºC, was the lubricant. The ratio of liner wear to ring wear is about 5:1, higher than the ratio expected in engines. The reasons for that difference are known and can be accounted for in adjusting the test data to correspond better with engine wear data.
Specimens of five standard engine test oils (used) were obtained from Southwest Research Institute, and fleet-tested oils were obtained from Dr. J. Perez at Pennsylvania State University. Each will be analyzed and subjected to the proposed testing protocol to determine the method’s ability to detect differences in the oil condition. Recommendations will then be made as to which oil or formulation should be used in order to obtain repeatable material screening results.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/hswr_2004/fy04_hswr_4a.pdf
Additional Use for Wear Measurement
The effects of oil condition on wear can also be studied using a variant of this test method. It is known that used engine oil tends to be depleted of its friction-reducing and wear-reducing additives. Such oils also contain soot, a by-product of combustion. The effects of oil condition on wear are illustrated in Figures 2 and 3. Both tests involved the same starting material combination (a chromiumplated diesel engine ring on cast iron). Tests were run for 6 h in oil at 100°C. In the first case, the lubricant was fresh 15W40 grade diesel engine oil (Cummins Blue); and in the second case, the lubricant was a high-soot test oil from Southwest Research Institute (called “M11 HST oil”). Using a surface profiling instrument, the wear volumes and wear rates of the specimens can be determined. In the example shown here, the wear rate of the cast iron in engine-conditioned test oil was four times higher than in the fresh oil. Therefore, as an added benefit, the basic friction test procedures developed in the course of this project can be extended, with minor procedural modifications, to measure the wear of new ring and liner materials as well.
http://www.swri.edu/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
...the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/high-strength/4a_improved_friction.pdf
Oil Condition
Previous DOE-sponsored research at Cummins Engine Company indicated that fresh and EC oil can make differences in friction and wear of coatings for engine materials. Therefore, it was important in this work to identify the type of used oil or EC lubricant surrogate that could be used in a standard test for candidate ring and liner materials and surface treatments. Figure 1 shows the effect of applied test load on the wear rates (μm/h) for chrome-plated diesel engine piston rings sliding against cast iron liner materials. The cast iron was prepared to simulate cylinder bores using the finishing method noted earlier. Used diesel engine oil from a commercial engine test, heated to 100ºC, was the lubricant. The ratio of liner wear to ring wear is about 5:1, higher than the ratio expected in engines. The reasons for that difference are known and can be accounted for in adjusting the test data to correspond better with engine wear data.
Specimens of five standard engine test oils (used) were obtained from Southwest Research Institute, and fleet-tested oils were obtained from Dr. J. Perez at Pennsylvania State University. Each will be analyzed and subjected to the proposed testing protocol to determine the method’s ability to detect differences in the oil condition. Recommendations will then be made as to which oil or formulation should be used in order to obtain repeatable material screening results.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/hswr_2004/fy04_hswr_4a.pdf
Additional Use for Wear Measurement
The effects of oil condition on wear can also be studied using a variant of this test method. It is known that used engine oil tends to be depleted of its friction-reducing and wear-reducing additives. Such oils also contain soot, a by-product of combustion. The effects of oil condition on wear are illustrated in Figures 2 and 3. Both tests involved the same starting material combination (a chromiumplated diesel engine ring on cast iron). Tests were run for 6 h in oil at 100°C. In the first case, the lubricant was fresh 15W40 grade diesel engine oil (Cummins Blue); and in the second case, the lubricant was a high-soot test oil from Southwest Research Institute (called “M11 HST oil”). Using a surface profiling instrument, the wear volumes and wear rates of the specimens can be determined. In the example shown here, the wear rate of the cast iron in engine-conditioned test oil was four times higher than in the fresh oil. Therefore, as an added benefit, the basic friction test procedures developed in the course of this project can be extended, with minor procedural modifications, to measure the wear of new ring and liner materials as well.
The linked pdf describes a method to measure ring/cyclinder wear (also from Oak Ridge). Direct comparisons were made between fresh/new and "engine aged" oil. Coefficient of friction and wear numbers were lower for engine aged oil.
www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2005/pres/117987.pdf
www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2005/pres/117987.pdf
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