Oil Recommendation for 03 Accord 4 cyl ?

[SteveON]

On severe vers not severe, well in the summer out here in Palmdale, 100 degrees + is not unusual. However on the other side of the ledger, there is almost no traffic on my commute, get in start up drive moderately
So severe or not severe that is the question dear oil geeks....

Right now I'm leaning Penz 5 K changes, or Mobile 1 at 10 K intervals.

Maybe I break down and spend the money to do the analaysis to validate the 5 K Penz plan...might be good science.

Thanks to all who have weighed in on the dialog.

 

[satterfi]

Anyone who's been paying attention knows the Honda factory fill has around 500 ppm moly.

I have an analysis on my wife's Honda with 1500 miles that confirms what I've already seen posted on this forum.

It's not a myth.

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Originally posted by Ray H:

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Originally posted by MikeySoft:
The breakin oil for the Accord is special & has a lot of moly.

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There is NO information from American Honda that this is true at all. The factory fill oil could just as well be relabled Mobil Drive Clean (as sold at dealers as "Genuine Honda Motor Oil" and the moly could just as well be from the assembly lube slathered on the camshafts, bearings, and piston skirts. One more Urban Myth that will not die... (Myths can be true. But, they can also be bovine stuff.)

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[MikeySoft]

From Honda:

Follow the "severe" schedule only if you drive in one or more of these conditions most of the time:

Trips of less than 5 miles (less than 10 in freezing weather)
Extremely hot weather (over 90 degrees F)
Extensive idling or stop-and-go driving
Trailer towing, driving with a car-top carrier, or driving in the mountains
Muddy, dusty, or de-iced roads

Also from Honda:

Following the "severe conditions" guidelines won't help your Honda unless you really do drive under those conditions. Many vehicle owners waste time, money, and oil on unnecessary oil changes, for example. The quality of engine oil and filters has steadily improved to keep pace with the requirements of new engines.

Looks like severe during your summer to me unless you keep the AC off.

[ July 30, 2003, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: MikeySoft ]

 

[jsharp]

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Originally posted by timzak:

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Originally posted by CJH:

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Originally posted by Bror Jace:
[iI'd just use Pennzoil 5W20 and follow the extreme service interval.

--- Bror Jace

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Why would you use the extreme interval if he is driving 100 miles round trip per day? That sounds like a solid case for the normal interval. Usually they say 5 to 10 mile trips or less for severe. Presumably this would be 50 miles each way. I would use the standard / normal interval recommended by Honda, probably 7,500 miles.

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Actually, my manual says the Normal interval is 10,000 miles. Would you feel comfortable leaving dino in that long? Severe interval is 5,000 miles. I believe it's different for the V6: 7,500 normal, 3,750 severe.

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I wouldn't be comfortable running dino 10K miles, but I'd bet a good quality synthetic 5W-30 would run that long...

 

[cvl]

Honda has stated that their factory fill contains a lot of moly to help with the break-in. This is not an urban myth. They began saying this when the S2000 came out. It drove a lot of owners crazy since they wanted to change the oil immediately.

If you're concerned about metal bits from the machining process, just change the filter.

You may want to look at Neo's 0w-5 synthetic. It's closer to a 0w-20 or 0w-30 and is supposed to be really good.

 

[Bror Jace]

Thanks to everyone who essentially voiced my opinion in my absence ... 10K on a dino oil is just a little too long if you really care about your car ... and the $5-10 you save each year from less frequent changes (assuming you do them yourself) is false economy.

Anything 7,500 miles or more without testing is not good, IMO. Even then you might get gradual build up which may not show up clearly in testing.

And if I never hear someone telling me that the Honda break-in oil is an "urban myth" again, it'll be too d@mn soon!

--- Bror Jace

 

[timzak]

quote:

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Originally posted by satterfi:
Anyone who's been paying attention knows the Honda factory fill has around 500 ppm moly.

I have an analysis on my wife's Honda with 1500 miles that confirms what I've already seen posted on this forum.

It's not a myth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeySoft:
The breakin oil for the Accord is special & has a lot of moly.

---

There is NO information from American Honda that this is true at all. The factory fill oil could just as well be relabled Mobil Drive Clean (as sold at dealers as "Genuine Honda Motor Oil" and the moly could just as well be from the assembly lube slathered on the camshafts, bearings, and piston skirts. One more Urban Myth that will not die... (Myths can be true. But, they can also be bovine stuff.)

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While I personally believe that the factory fill in Hondas does have a significant amount of moly based on UOAs, but I think RayH's point was that we don't have any VOAs (that I'm aware of) of the actual oil Honda pours in off the assembly line, so the evidence thus far is circumstantial (we're assuming the high levels of moly are from special break-in oil and not assembly lube).

 

[John in the ATL]

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Originally posted by Bror Jace:
"From seeing UOAs on a 1999 TL, Honda V6s have high bearing wear."

Was that Bill99GXE's dad's? I've seen those results but the newer Hondas seems to have a lot lower bearing wear(lead) showing. Take a look in our UOA section for a couple ... and at least one was using a 5W20 oil.
--- Bror Jace

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Yes that is correct.

 

[Bror Jace]

Well, I see RayH's point ... but I ran into doubters on use.net FOR YEARS and until they read the text on the official site, they would argue and argue and argue that there's no such thing as break-in oil and some even went so far as to suggest it was an attempt by dealers to make sure owners got fewer miles out of engines.

Still the idea that the moly is only in the assembly lube and not in the oil would mean that Honda is out-and-out lying to their customers.

It would actually be easier and cheaper for Honda to simply have batches of a high-moly oil blended and poured into the cars at the factory than the application of a special assembly lube by hand. Plus, if this was the case, the level in UOA could vary widely between a few hundred PPMs and a few THOUSAND depending on the tech doing the applicating.

I know some pistons in some cars ('Tegs, Maximas, probably RSXs, etc ...) are coated with moly but this usually shows up as 30-60PPM in UOA during the first few tens of thousands of miles.

I sticking with the idea that Honda is being truthful when they say they have a special break-in oil and it should be left in for a few thousand miles.

Although, with most current oils using moly these days (especially the 5W20s), I don't think this is as critical as it was 2+ years ago.

--- Bror Jace

 

[CJH]

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Originally posted by Jim Spahr:
I would rec. a break in period of 9k or so with the best dino oil in the factory rec. weight. During this break in period, I would change the dino oil AND filter, first at 500 miles, then 3 changes at 3,000 miles-total 9k- to seat the rings. After that I would go to the Mobil 1 oil and a good filter.

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Where do you get this stuff? I am not familar with any modern car that requires a special break in or ring seating procedure. You could just pour the money for all those oil changes down a rat hole and the integrity of your engine would be the same. I say...BASED ON WHAT?

On my 2000 Honda Civic Si, they recommend frequent changes (~30,000 miles) of coolant and brake fluid. The reason I mention this is to show that Honda is not bashful about specifying heavy maintenance where it is beneficial. What you are recommending is pointless, not based on any kind of fact. I drove my Civic SI HARD for 60,000 miles on dino with 7,500 mile intervals (all trips = 50 miles) and the car uses absolutely no significant oil. At 60,000, I just started using Mobil 1, because I was impressed with the LS1 test. GET REAL!

 

[Bror Jace]

CJH, for decades it was conventional wisdom to change the oil frequently in a brand new car. As the motor “breaks-in,” shavings and other debris circulates through the oil and could possible cause more wear so it was best to flush that initial oil … perhaps even more than once. Modern engines are built to closer tolerances than they were a couple decades ago but UOA show us that wear during “break-in” (different for every make and model of car) is still significant.

If you’ve seen the glittery oil come out of new power equipment (yes, even Honda) you’d see why people hold onto the belief the frequent, early oil changes are a good thing for an engine you want to run a long time.

Now Honda, with their moly-rich automotive break-in goo might be a case where you don’t want to get rid of that factory oil so soon … but I don’t see anything wrong with a little “cheap insurance” (see the current related thread titled “Can’t Afford It”) such as 3,000 mile intervals with most cars. I’m doing something similar with my ’03 SE-R Spec-V right now. Since one of those oil changes was free (provided by the dealer) it’s no big deal.

Now, they usually say in the owners manual to drive the car normally (no high RPMs, etc …) for the first few tankfulls, 1,200 miles, etc … This is a bare minimum, as far as I’m concerned. According to the tech guys at Sport Compact Car, the rings on my Spec-V don’t fully seat until the 6,000 mile mark and owners need to be extra wary of sudden, sporadic oil consumption.

Anyway, I just don’t see a problem with a little extra TLC on a brand new car. At worst, it’s a “waste” of about $10-$20 worth of oil and filters. No biggie.

--- Bror Jace

 

[cryptokid]

ok guys, check this out.

most of you would agree that an engine needs friction to break in the rings properly. this is the reason why most people start their new car on dino and switch to synthetic later on.

so why is it that you all think moly is good thing for breakin then? to me it would seem an oil without moly would be better for breakin. get those rings a little friction so they can seat peoperly.

the rest of the engine, the cams, journals, bearings and such dont break in, they operate on a total loss principle where they awalys work better when they are new. piston rings are the only part which requires a break in, well on MODERN engines anyways, and sence this is an 03 car, i would consider it pretty modern.
alot of you are contradicting yourselves in this issue.

my personal belief on breakin for a modern engine is to run it for 50 or so miles running it hard! change the oil after 50 miles and go for 500 miles, change again and go for 3000. run it easy but not too easy from 51 miles to 3000.
this is to seat the rings, which again are the ONLY part of a modern car which actually breaks in.
i guess i should also say that sence the rings breakin, the cylinder do as well, and maybe to some extent the pistons.

 

[MikeySoft]

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... change the oil after 50 miles and go for 500 miles, change again and go for 3000 ...

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... a little “cheap insurance” ...

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Multiply by the number of cars in the US/Canada, the Oil Companies and OPEC countries loves you guys.

We are getting away from the original poster’s last question, is his type of driving severe?

[ August 01, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: MikeySoft ]

 

[CJH]

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Originally posted by cryptokid:
cjh, theres awalys exceptions to rules. i just knew someone was going to mention porsche and whatnot. well i dont know whats up with exotics. but i do know one thing, a honda accord aint no porsche.

do you think the same rules apply to an exotic car like a nice vette or porsche as a honda accord?

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I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with the new car oil change patterns you describe, just seems extreme. Certainly wont hurt anything and it is relatively inexpensive. Will it make your engine last longer? Perhaps, but I doubt it will matter in the final eulogy of the car. I guess I would coin a new phrase "EXTREME MAINTENANCE" to describe this approach...beyond merely "overmaintained".

Are the rules different for speical interest cars? I wuold say...this gets to the nature of the car/owner relationship. A 2003 Honda Accord V6 with leather may mean as much to one guy as a Corvette does to another. Then there are the people who due to their means or just their makeup don't care to maintain the Corvette or the Accord. I do agree that most people, rich or of modest means, will give special respect, maintenance and care to cars like Corvettes, Porshes and the like.

I am sorry for being critical. Maybe I will do an early oil change on my next new car...but probably not at 50 miles!

 

[GSV]

Is the 500 ppm of moly in the Honda break-in oil some ethereal formula that cannot be duplicated?

Um, NO!

Will the moly make up for the manufacturing crud circulating in the oil? I doubt it.

Why not follow the frequent change routine and add a bottle of Scheaffers 132 at each change? You will have the best of both worlds.

To the original question; I think the idea of using a good conventional during break-in followed by M1 or another high quality syn or synblend is a solid plan.

Magic break in oil my ***

 

[CJH]

re: "most of you would agree that an engine needs friction to break in the rings properly. this is the reason why most people start their new car on dino and switch to synthetic later on."

If that were true, some of the highest performing (and more expensive) cars in the world would not come with Mobil 1, would they?

re: "change the oil after 50 miles and go for 500 miles, change again and go for 3000."

Shaking my head...you guys are sick!

 

[cryptokid]

cjh, theres awalys exceptions to rules. i just knew someone was going to mention porsche and whatnot. well i dont know whats up with exotics. but i do know one thing, a honda accord aint no porsche.

do you think the same rules apply to an exotic car like a nice vette or porsche as a honda accord?