Oil Question after reading "Motor Oil University"

[randomhero439]

Last night I read the "Motor Oil University" article written by Haas. I must say it was pretty eye opening when he dumped the Ferrari FF for a 0w-20 oil.

#1: From what I can concluded from the article, you should always use the lowest possible winter weight available, like a 0w-xx. Making 10w-xx pretty much useless except for the 10w-60 in BMW M cars. Is this correct?

So in that case, should i be using 0w-20 in my Accord and Civic. And use 0w30 in my Sienna?

Also on a sidenote: Pennzoil Ultra is equivilent of Mobil1 EP? While Pennzoil Platinum is equivilent to normal Mobil1. I know PU isnt marketed as a EP oil, but UOA show it is capable of long intervals.

 

[uart]

This is a pretty frequently asked question. Yes, in the absence of any other constraints then the lower the first number the better.

In practice however, the larger the spread in those 2 viscosity numbers then either the more expensive is the base oil to achieve that, or the more viscosity index improvers needed. Since viscosity index improvers tend to break down, cheap oils using lots of them will generally hold their grade poorly and may also be more prone to sludge.

In other words, if say you wanted a cheap dino oil in a 0W50 grade, then it probably could be made but it would likely be complete sludge feasting rubbish. So no one makes such an oil. If you want a really big spread like 5W50 then you'd better use really good (and generally expensive) base oils.

So there's a trade off. If you want a very cheap dino oil and you're in a warm climate, then 10W30 could be a better choice than 5W30. If however you're prepared to spend more, then 5W30 or 0W30 could be better (than 10W30) in any climate.

 

[bepperb]

Well, the disadvantages to a high viscosity index 0w-xx oil are price and shear resistance. The shear resistance aspect can be eliminated by better base stocks and in practice and from looking at VOA's it usually is. The price aspect is somewhat of a non-issue as retailers are usually too lazy and just have the same price for every weight of oil.

The last item worth consideration is warranty, though your Honda's are out of that.

So yeah, 0w-20 for the Hondas and it's tough to say without the year of your Sienna. If it's the 3.0 how about stick with what you're using so we don't get a grenaded engine blamed on "thin oil".

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
#1: From what I can concluded from the article, you should always use the lowest possible winter weight available, like a 0w-xx.


As long as you are looking at two synthetic (costlier) products, then I agree. Say you're looking at Mobil 1 0W-20 and 5W-20. Mobil 1 0W-20 and Mobil 1 5W-20 should cost the same to buy. Same with Pennzoil Platinum, Valvoline SynPower, or any other brand/flavor that offers a 0W-xx and a 5W-xx in the "same" product. If you're going to pay the same for either grade, then I see no technical reason to buy the 5W-xx vs. the 0W-xx. The only reason I'd be hesitant is if there are warranty concerns. For many, this is of no concern.

Now if you otherwise normally buy conventional 5W-20, for example, and are now considering spending more for a 0W-20, then the decision involves other factors. For example, how much is that synthetic or synthetic blend 0W worth to you over the conventional 5W? Again, if the price difference between the two is $0, then the decision is easy (at least to me). But what if it costs $1/qt more for the 0W? What about $2/qt more? You get the point. There is a price at which ANY of us would say, "no, it's not worth THAT much more to buy the 0W grade."

I suspect that price difference will vary significantly depending on who you ask. Some will say that if it costs them a penny more for the 0W, it's not worth it. Some will spend twice the price of a conventional to get a high-VI 0W oil. It depends on many things.

 

[skyship]

In general terms although a 5WXX is certified to minus 35C, the major oil companies that can be trusted to give sensible advice, say that if the min temperature goes below minus 25C, you should use a 0W oil or fit a sump or block heater etc.
A fully synthetic 5w40 will last slightly longer in high temp shear terms than an 0/40, although very few owners push their oil that far.

 

[m6pwr]

You could run a Ferrari, for awhile, on Mazzola oil. What does that prove?

I'd follow the oil recommendations in your owner's manual.

As for 0wxx vs 5wxx, it's my understanding that 0w oils are 5wxx with added pour point depressants in them, so they flow a little better on start up at very low temps, and thus the lube mfrs indicate this to the consumer with the 0w vis designation. Practically speaking for an oil to have 0w (which is a measure of saybolt seconds or something like that) it would have to flow through the viscosimeter orifice instantaneously - - 0 seconds. I'm not an expert on the space-time continuum but I don't that is possible.

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

start looking at the 40 and 100 C cST for all the oils you're interested in, that will explain a lot compared to looking at the 0W or 5W. then HTHS if available and the long threads on that and keep goin

 

[randomhero439]

I speak of synthetic oils, so 0w-xx is the best for synthetic oils. While with conventional it really depends on your driving and how often you change it.

It seems that with conventional, 5w30 has more VI than 10w30. So if both wear out, the 5w30 will become a 5 and the 10w30 will become a 10. Of course the 10wt will protect more than a 5wt will. However if you change the oil before the VI run out, then 5w30 is best for all year. Is the 5w/10w thing really just a safety precaution with conventionals?

With synthetics the viscosity does not change as there are no viscosity improvers. If the basestock of a synthetic starts at 30wt, these "pour point depressants" are added to decrease viscosity when cold? If these depressants are added, do they eventually wear out as well making 0w30 into a 30wt? OR is the basestock just engineered as a 0w30 with no "pour point depressants" added and the cold/hot viscosity will never change.

Am i following this correctly?

Also on a sidenote: Pennzoil Ultra is equivilent of Mobil1 EP? While Pennzoil Platinum is equivilent to normal Mobil1. I know PU isnt marketed as a EP oil, but UOA show it is capable of long intervals.

 

[mechtech2]

It's all about OIL temperature.
Race around and get it hot, and Dr. Haas will need thicker oil, for sure.

A '0' first number is better for any cold start [REALLY better when way cold out], but a '5' has proven good in practice for most circumstances in the USA.

 

[randomhero439]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It's all about OIL temperature.
Race around and get it hot, and Dr. Haas will need thicker oil, for sure.

A '0' first number is better for any cold start [REALLY better when way cold out], but a '5' has proven good in practice for most circumstances in the USA.


So i fill my car in winter after the racing season, and just run that oil until the next race season (6months). Should i use 5w-20 during summer and 0w-20 during winter? Ive looked at redlines specs and the 5w-20 is significantly better than there 0w-20. Why is that?

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
I speak of synthetic oils, so 0w-xx is the best for synthetic oils. While with conventional it really depends on your driving and how often you change it.

It seems that with conventional, 5w30 has more VI than 10w30. So if both wear out, the 5w30 will become a 5 and the 10w30 will become a 10. Of course the 10wt will protect more than a 5wt will. However if you change the oil before the VI run out, then 5w30 is best for all year. Is the 5w/10w thing really just a safety precaution with conventionals?

With synthetics the viscosity does not change as there are no viscosity improvers. If the basestock of a synthetic starts at 30wt, these "pour point depressants" are added to decrease viscosity when cold? If these depressants are added, do they eventually wear out as well making 0w30 into a 30wt? OR is the basestock just engineered as a 0w30 with no "pour point depressants" added and the cold/hot viscosity will never change.

Am i following this correctly?

Also on a sidenote: Pennzoil Ultra is equivilent of Mobil1 EP? While Pennzoil Platinum is equivilent to normal Mobil1. I know PU isnt marketed as a EP oil, but UOA show it is capable of long intervals.


Umm! I hope you have not been reading too much oil industry advertising. I can assure you that driver style and useage are every bit as important when you use a fully synthetic oil as a conventional dino one.
Most German cars that have long OCI's use 5/30, not 0/30 because assuming the base stock quality is the same, it will last longer. The older high performance long OCI cars use a fully or HC synthetic 5w40.
Synthetic oils can shear down and suffer from fuel dilution in just the same way as a conventional oil. They can even form sludge if pushed too far, or contaminated.

There are only 4 advantages to using a fully synthetic oil in comparison to a top quality dino, as follows:
1/ It is slightly better in terms of initial cold start flow factors if the temp is below minus 25C. (That is about the temp you should start to think about using an 0W/xx oil).
2/ If your turbo gets very hot in race applications or when you drive the latest Porsch at night on a German autobahn, it might not suffer from high temp shearing to the same extent as a dino.
3/ It seems to last an average of 50% longer in OCI terms than an equivalent dino or part synthetic, assuming no contamination occurs.
4/ The feel good factor!

With the ultra short OCI's used in the USA, some major brand dino oils or part synthetics can beat the best of the best. For example with an average OCI of 5K miles the BMW forum averaged out UOA results showed that Castrol GTX 5w30 produced lower wear metal figures than Mobil 0/40 and Castrol Edge 5w30 was only a fraction better.

 

[randomhero439]

My price limit is no Redline, Royal Purple, or Amsoil. None of the "boutique" oils. Would i really notice a difference running 0w-20 vs 5w-20? Or am i over thinking this. Should i just use my Pennzoil and follow the book?

 

[weebl]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
My price limit is no Redline, Royal Purple, or Amsoil. None of the "boutique" oils. Would i really notice a difference running 0w-20 vs 5w-20? Or am i over thinking this. Should i just use my Pennzoil and follow the book?


How cold does it get where you are? In all likelihood, the answer is you probably won't be able to tell a difference between a 0W-20 and a 5W-20. FWIW, I have used in 5w30 (usually) and 5W-20 (rarely) synthetic and the ambient temperature is about -30C/-22F and colder, with no issues. Oddly, 0W-xx oils aren't as readily available around here as you would expect. GC at limited retailers, or else it is boutique, dealership 0W-20 or HDEO from an oil distributor.,\

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
With synthetics the viscosity does not change as there are no viscosity improvers. If the basestock of a synthetic starts at 30wt, these "pour point depressants" are added to decrease viscosity when cold? If these depressants are added, do they eventually wear out as well making 0w30 into a 30wt? OR is the basestock just engineered as a 0w30 with no "pour point depressants" added and the cold/hot viscosity will never change.

Am i following this correctly?


Not really. This is something that takes time to wrap your mind around, and honestly if I hadn't seen some of these ingredients in person, I probably still wouldn't get it.

First off - all engine oils use some kind of viscosity improvers - synthetic or conventional.

With regard to the use of pour point depressants, I think this can get confusing. AFAIK all finished engine oils also use a combination of base stocks which have different viscosity in order to reach the desired results. Usually this is a very light viscosity oil combined with a heavier viscosity oil.

Viscosity Index is a measurement of the rate of change in viscosity as temperature changes. Higher Viscosity Index means less change. That means at 100C and at 40C the viscosity measurement will be closer together. A lower viscosity index would mean that these numbers will be further apart. As the oil is exposed to cold, it gets thicker. Eventually it gets too thick to flow. The benefit to using synthetics is that they have a naturally high viscosity index and therefore the flow rate of the oil doesn't change as drastically when the temperature changes.

The use of Viscosity Index improvers and pour point depressants impact the way the flow rate of the oil is impacted by temperature. The role of the viscosity index improver is to keep the oil from thinning too much as the oil heats up and the role of the pour point depressant is to prevent the oil from thickening too much as it cools. The funny thing about these ingredients is they are very similar and are both much thicker on their own then when mixed with the finished oil. This is why creating oils is almost as much an art as it is science. Finding the perfect blend for any given operating conditions is not only difficult, but also subjective.

 

[randomhero439]

^Most helpful answer, Thanks

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It's all about OIL temperature.
Race around and get it hot, and Dr. Haas will need thicker oil, for sure.

A '0' first number is better for any cold start [REALLY better when way cold out], but a '5' has proven good in practice for most circumstances in the USA.


So i fill my car in winter after the racing season, and just run that oil until the next race season (6months). Should i use 5w-20 during summer and 0w-20 during winter? Ive looked at redlines specs and the 5w-20 is significantly better than there 0w-20. Why is that?


Not much difference. 5-20 is going to be really good all year - probably what I'd do. In some situations, the '0' will have an edge.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
Would i really notice a difference running 0w-20 vs 5w-20? Or am i over thinking this. Should i just use my Pennzoil and follow the book?

Yes you likely would notice the difference between an ultra high VI 0W-20 like the Mazda USA 0W-20 (221 VI) or Toyota 0W-20 (216 VI) vs a typically low VI 5W-20. Most members that have tried these new 0W-20 oils have noticed a difference:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2678471#Post2678471

 

[Mitch Alsup]

Originally Posted By: randomhero439
#1: From what I can concluded from the article, you should always use the lowest possible winter weight available, like a 0w-xx. Making 10w-xx pretty much useless except for the 10w-60 in BMW M cars. Is this correct?


Notice that Dr. Haas does not drive his Ferrari (or Lamborghini or Maybach) very hard, or very long (most of the time). Thus, for his application, having an oil at 12 cSt earlier leads to better lubrication.

Were he to take his car to the track, he would have to put in a higher viscosity.

Thus, it is about actual viscosity (as in centiStokes not grade/weight 0W-30). Since actual viscosity decreases with increasing temperature it is also about temperature.

Quote:
So in that case, should i be using 0w-20 in my Accord and Civic. And use 0w30 in my Sienna?


It depends on YOUR application--and the temperature of your oil. Do you even KNOW the temperature of your oil? Under what conditions?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: randomhero439
#1: From what I can concluded from the article, you should always use the lowest possible winter weight available, like a 0w-xx. Making 10w-xx pretty much useless except for the 10w-60 in BMW M cars. Is this correct?


Notice that Dr. Haas does not drive his Ferrari (or Lamborghini or Maybach) very hard, or very long (most of the time). Thus, for his application, having an oil at 12 cSt earlier leads to better lubrication.

Were he to take his car to the track, he would have to put in a higher viscosity.

Thus, it is about actual viscosity (as in centiStokes not grade/weight 0W-30). Since actual viscosity decreases with increasing temperature it is also about temperature.

Quote:
So in that case, should i be using 0w-20 in my Accord and Civic. And use 0w30 in my Sienna?


It depends on YOUR application--and the temperature of your oil. Do you even KNOW the temperature of your oil? Under what conditions?

Additionally the oil temp's on the Enzo don't get above 82C which is very much at the low end of normal oil temp's.
And it's not a good idea to rely on the kinematic viscosity spec's which do not correlate well with operational viscosity; HTHSV is much better in that regard.
Additionally oil temp's are not the bottom line to be concerned about but rather oil pressure which takes everything; oil temp's, oil viscosity, oil shear and fuel dillution into account. And the good doctor has OP gauges in all his toys.

And if he did take cars to the track he may not necessarily need to run a heavier oil. I run a very light 0W-20 (HTHSV 2.6cP, 200 VI) in my track car with no problem at the track, and yes the oil temp's are well contained:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2828484#Post2828484

 

[[RT] ProjUltraZ]

Your theory that HTHS is better for measuring operational viscosities is reasonable, but many oils don't list it. 100C cST is then useful as it shows relative differences in visc across oil brands at common operating temp