Oil grade Ford 5.4 3V- I was wrong

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: 95busa
Great input- let me ask this though. If the heavier oil makes the engine quieter, could it not be that the heavier oil provides a thicker film that actually provides better protection for noisy chains and guides? I get the whole band-aid thing, but if it makes the noise go away I think it could be because it is actually doing something good. As for the phasers, at this point in my financial life I would probably have to lock them. Changing phasers, chain tensioners, guides, chains etc is a no-go. Like I said before, changing solenoids for the upgraded B types is about as far as I am going to go for money/time reasons right now.

Is it the chains and guides making the noise or the phasers/VCT? I should think these two are mutually exclusive of both the types of noise they make and how much a thicker oil could mask the sound. I totally get where you are coming from on locking the phasers and I seem to recall Jim Allen stating that you would lose about 10-15HP on the top end of the curve. Not really over the top and since I usually run E85 when I tow, I would hope that it would be close to a wash if I ever have to lock mine. I do wonder though if varnish/light sludge is what starts the degradation of the phasers/VCTs and leads it to the eventual problems they have. I also wonder if synthetics could delay/prevent this from happening in the first place. While there are some who use synthetics in these engines, my guess is that by and large (since they are more or less deemed as indestructible) if most run a conventional and eventually have a build up that causes the issues. I am opining here since I have not read anything about benefits of synthetics in modular engines preventing phaser/VCT issues.

 

[95busa]

I unplugged both VCT solenoids, no change to noises. At this point I am thinking phasers, tensioners/chain noise, or outside chance exhaust. I am going to do the fogging idea and put the exhaust thing to bed once and for all. If the 10w40 makes the noise go away I am going to consider it good. If an exhaust leak is identified at the manifolds, I am going to throw headers on it and consider it good. If none of those things appear to be the problem, I will check torque on plugs. If that don't do it, i will live with it. I am not going to lock the phasers until it starts running bad or throwing codes, since I will have to buy a tuner in addition to the phaser locks.

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: DemoFly
Everyone I know who owns a 3V is a hypochondriac about their engine. I think some spend more money on "repairs" and "diagnosis" then they would for an entire engine swap.

I am trying to spend as close to zero money as possible. I have been driving for 24 years, many products from many manufacturers, and I have never heard an engine make noises like this that did not indicate a problem. Ford did not design this engine to sound this way, I know this because I have driven several 5.4 3V engines many thousands of miles in horrible conditions with indifferent maintenance, and none of them sounded like this. My wife's uncle had one that ticked also, but I never drove it, just heard it running. It was a lease, so he never got many miles on it. While I understand how you may feel the way you do, my experience with these engines indicates to me that there is something wrong with mine. Is it something immediately or near term fatal? Probably not. Is it a good thing, or neutral to engine longevity? Probably not. Since I do not wish to buy a new engine, I am trying to fix the issue with as little money as possible. It is not being a hypochondriac, it is trying to trouble shoot an issue that has given many people fits for many years as efficiently as possbile.

 

[steve20]

Originally Posted By: 95busa
Originally Posted By: steve20
Re checking for exhaust leak
What I have done in the past is to get some fogging oil in aerosol (Advance or Zone). Find an area past your MAF so you don't get oil spray on any electrical components in the intake tract. Have someone spray away till it starts to smoke out the tailpipe while you look around the engine compartment/underneath for smoke which will be coming from your exhaust leak, if there is one
Steve

I am going to try that next oil change- great idea


You are welcome. Re-stating shoot the aerosol behind any MAF or electrical parts in the way. I hope the all turns out to be a simple exhaust leak for you
Steve

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: 95busa
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


^ this ive had a 5.4 3V in the past. sure you can use a thick oil and mask the phaser and chain/guide noise. that is until the chain gets too loose and breaks a guide, causing the engine to loose time. The proper fix is to buy the updated phaser with a coil dowl. most 5.4's after 2009 had the updated phaser. also while there replace the timing chains and guides. its a good idea to buy the kits that include new cam and crank gears as well as new tensioners. IMO it is unwise to just replace the chain and guides, and not the gears. you wouldn't put a new chain on a motorcycle and leave old sprockets on if you want the combo to last. it is the same with these engines. fix the issue and you wont need to cover up a loose coiled phaser/loose chain or broken guide noise.

if you only have 65k miles i would just live with the noise...unless it is audible noise coming from the chain/guide on start up. in this case it would be wise to make sure a guide hasnt broke. ive seen it before on a modular as early as 80k miles. very uncommon until very high mileage, but it can happen. the guides are usually the first things to wear out in a modular from my experience. Well, with the exception of the powdered metal rods breaking on mustangs..

Great input- let me ask this though. If the heavier oil makes the engine quieter, could it not be that the heavier oil provides a thicker film that actually provides better protection for noisy chains and guides? I get the whole band-aid thing, but if it makes the noise go away I think it could be because it is actually doing something good. As for the phasers, at this point in my financial life I would probably have to lock them. Changing phasers, chain tensioners, guides, chains etc is a no-go. Like I said before, changing solenoids for the upgraded B types is about as far as I am going to go for money/time reasons right now.


i personally do believe that a heavier oil would in fact extend the life of the chain and guide surface, however the tensioners that are ran on the engines which ensure the chain stays tight have super small oil passages, so long story short IMO i wouldn't go much heavier than a 10w30. can you go heavier? sure, but i just wouldn't. again this is just my opinion from having many apart. As for the phasers, if the noise is just phaser tick i wouldn't worry about it at all. the newer designed phasers have a dowl that holds the coil tight so it cannot tap the phaser case. the older ones just tick from a light tapping from the phaser coil, and as the phaser weakens it will also get louder, generally. Mechanically they don't fail. as long as you don't have chain slap i wouldn't worry one bit.

 

[95busa]

I hear you, but oil filters have super small oil passages as well, and they manage to get oil through them. Its only a 10w at startup, and I imagine a 40 weight at 100C is still thinner than a 10w at startup. If it makes different crazy noises, I will drop to a 5w-30 or 10w30 HDEO. I already scooped up the 10w40, so it gets first crack. Thanks for the phaser lesson, I understand what they do, but not how they do it. How much do the B model VCT solenoids help (not just with noise, but with phaser operation)?

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: 95busa
Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


^ this ive had a 5.4 3V in the past. sure you can use a thick oil and mask the phaser and chain/guide noise. that is until the chain gets too loose and breaks a guide, causing the engine to loose time. The proper fix is to buy the updated phaser with a coil dowl. most 5.4's after 2009 had the updated phaser. also while there replace the timing chains and guides. its a good idea to buy the kits that include new cam and crank gears as well as new tensioners. IMO it is unwise to just replace the chain and guides, and not the gears. you wouldn't put a new chain on a motorcycle and leave old sprockets on if you want the combo to last. it is the same with these engines. fix the issue and you wont need to cover up a loose coiled phaser/loose chain or broken guide noise.

if you only have 65k miles i would just live with the noise...unless it is audible noise coming from the chain/guide on start up. in this case it would be wise to make sure a guide hasnt broke. ive seen it before on a modular as early as 80k miles. very uncommon until very high mileage, but it can happen. the guides are usually the first things to wear out in a modular from my experience. Well, with the exception of the powdered metal rods breaking on mustangs..

Great input- let me ask this though. If the heavier oil makes the engine quieter, could it not be that the heavier oil provides a thicker film that actually provides better protection for noisy chains and guides? I get the whole band-aid thing, but if it makes the noise go away I think it could be because it is actually doing something good. As for the phasers, at this point in my financial life I would probably have to lock them. Changing phasers, chain tensioners, guides, chains etc is a no-go. Like I said before, changing solenoids for the upgraded B types is about as far as I am going to go for money/time reasons right now.


i personally do believe that a heavier oil would in fact extend the life of the chain and guide surface, however the tensioners that are ran on the engines which ensure the chain stays tight have super small oil passages, so long story short IMO i wouldn't go much heavier than a 10w30. can you go heavier? sure, but i just wouldn't. again this is just my opinion from having many apart. As for the phasers, if the noise is just phaser tick i wouldn't worry about it at all. the newer designed phasers have a dowl that holds the coil tight so it cannot tap the phaser case. the older ones just tick from a light tapping from the phaser coil, and as the phaser weakens it will also get louder, generally. Mechanically they don't fail. as long as you don't have chain slap i wouldn't worry one bit.


Are you saying that all the testing Ford has done, with 5-20 oils is not valid? As we know, there is no evidence that 20wt oils cause per-mature chain and guide failures. I personally have put hundreds of thousands of miles on over head cam engines using 20wt oil. One of the biggest problems for chain failures is oil sludge and heavy varnish stopping the oil flow. At present in both Fords I own, there is no chain noise. Both using 0-20 oil at 10K OCIs.

 

[95busa]

1.) I am saying that I do not believe, as many also do not believe that 20wt oil is ideal in some 3V 5.4L V8s.
2.) Do I believe engineers make mistakes. Yes. 6.0L powerstroke. I think in this case engineering was compromised by a directive to use 5w-20 oil, or that early cam phasers were not ideally suited for 5w-20, whatever. Next silly question.
3.) I am glad you have no chain noise on your vehicles. The four banger in your focus is irrelevant to the 3V 5.4L V8 in my F250. The hundreds of thousands of miles I drove in 2V Crown Vics and E350 vans with 2V modulars are equally irrelevant (which I used 5w-20 in).
4.) Dont get defensive. Your defensive statement about your oil choice on your focus makes no sense unless viewed in the perspective of you feeling the need to personally defend 5w-20 in general. I use 5w-20 in my Grand Caravan, which does not make disturbing noises and runs great on it.

 

[MNgopher]

Let's flip the argument on its head. Other than noise (see the informative post above on the source of the noise from the early phasers), what evidence is there that a thicker oil results in a longer life for the same phaser?

We have several of these motors over 200,000 miles, clacking away with noisy phasers. Just making a noise is not a foolproof way to determine there is a longetivity or viscosity issue to be solved.

The revisions to the phaser parts as time went on are an acknowledgement there was an issue. How much of the issue is driven by perception versus a physical failure would be an interesting discussion.

 

[95busa]

I agree- noise versus actual issue- however, I think we can agree neither the phasers, the chains, guides or exhaust manifolds were designed to make these kinds of noises, because again, I have driven many 3V 5.4s that did not make noise.
-What evidence is there that thicker oil does not result in longer life for the phasers? The issue has been debated, money and parts have been thrown at it by Ford, owners, aftermarket, etc, and my takeaway is that there are so many similar sounding noises and so many issues that cause noise with this engine, that it makes it really hard to trouble shoot. I don't even know for sure if the 10w-40 will fix the problem, or if it is even phaser related, but I am going to try it because it costs $15 and I see little potential down side. Evidence implies a body of work with definitive results. Look at any Ford forum about these engines and you will see a nearly infinite array of noises and problems and an equally diverse array of solutions. To me the A+ answer is phaser lock, tuner, fix any chain issue, torque plugs correctly, update VCT solenoids, headers for the manifolds and job done. I am exploring the least invasive and expensive solutions as I work through the issue. Before I change oil, I will check on manifold leaks as one great post advised to do (thanks again). I would suggest based on the shear volume of phaser problems and failures I have read about that the phasers, at least the early ones absolutely had some design flaws, once again maybe related to stacking tolerances than a fundamental issue.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: 95busa
1.) I am saying that I do not believe, as many also do not believe that 20wt oil is ideal in some 3V 5.4L V8s.
2.) Do I believe engineers make mistakes. Yes. 6.0L powerstroke. I think in this case engineering was compromised by a directive to use 5w-20 oil, or that early cam phasers were not ideally suited for 5w-20, whatever. Next silly question.
3.) I am glad you have no chain noise on your vehicles. The four banger in your focus is irrelevant to the 3V 5.4L V8 in my F250. The hundreds of thousands of miles I drove in 2V Crown Vics and E350 vans with 2V modulars are equally irrelevant (which I used 5w-20 in).
4.) Dont get defensive. Your defensive statement about your oil choice on your focus makes no sense unless viewed in the perspective of you feeling the need to personally defend 5w-20 in general. I use 5w-20 in my Grand Caravan, which does not make disturbing noises and runs great on it.


Not defensive, just there isn't any evidence that a 30 wt oil will deliver longer mileage to a 5.4 VS a 20wt as you may have suggested.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: 95busa
1.) I am saying that I do not believe, as many also do not believe that 20wt oil is ideal in some 3V 5.4L V8s.
2.) Do I believe engineers make mistakes. Yes. 6.0L powerstroke. I think in this case engineering was compromised by a directive to use 5w-20 oil, or that early cam phasers were not ideally suited for 5w-20, whatever. Next silly question.
3.) I am glad you have no chain noise on your vehicles. The four banger in your focus is irrelevant to the 3V 5.4L V8 in my F250. The hundreds of thousands of miles I drove in 2V Crown Vics and E350 vans with 2V modulars are equally irrelevant (which I used 5w-20 in).
4.) Dont get defensive. Your defensive statement about your oil choice on your focus makes no sense unless viewed in the perspective of you feeling the need to personally defend 5w-20 in general. I use 5w-20 in my Grand Caravan, which does not make disturbing noises and runs great on it.


Not defensive, just there isn't any evidence that a 30 wt oil will deliver longer mileage to a 5.4 VS a 20wt as you may have suggested.

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: 95busa
1.) I am saying that I do not believe, as many also do not believe that 20wt oil is ideal in some 3V 5.4L V8s.
2.) Do I believe engineers make mistakes. Yes. 6.0L powerstroke. I think in this case engineering was compromised by a directive to use 5w-20 oil, or that early cam phasers were not ideally suited for 5w-20, whatever. Next silly question.
3.) I am glad you have no chain noise on your vehicles. The four banger in your focus is irrelevant to the 3V 5.4L V8 in my F250. The hundreds of thousands of miles I drove in 2V Crown Vics and E350 vans with 2V modulars are equally irrelevant (which I used 5w-20 in).
4.) Dont get defensive. Your defensive statement about your oil choice on your focus makes no sense unless viewed in the perspective of you feeling the need to personally defend 5w-20 in general. I use 5w-20 in my Grand Caravan, which does not make disturbing noises and runs great on it.


Not defensive, just there isn't any evidence that a 30 wt oil will deliver longer mileage to a 5.4 VS a 20wt as you may have suggested.

Right- and there is no evidence it wont either, and your anecdote about your engines is irrelevant. Just as the fact that I have seen 2 valve crown vics run over 200k in police service on 15w-40 is irrelevant.

 

[donnyj08]

Quote:
i personally do believe that a heavier oil would in fact extend the life of the chain and guide surface, however the tensioners that are ran on the engines which ensure the chain stays tight have super small oil passages, so long story short IMO i wouldn't go much heavier than a 10w30. can you go heavier? sure, but i just wouldn't. again this is just my opinion from having many apart. As for the phasers, if the noise is just phaser tick i wouldn't worry about it at all. the newer designed phasers have a dowl that holds the coil tight so it cannot tap the phaser case. the older ones just tick from a light tapping from the phaser coil, and as the phaser weakens it will also get louder, generally. Mechanically they don't fail. as long as you don't have chain slap i wouldn't worry one bit.


Quote:
Are you saying that all the testing Ford has done, with 5-20 oils is not valid? As we know, there is no evidence that 20wt oils cause per-mature chain and guide failures. I personally have put hundreds of thousands of miles on over head cam engines using 20wt oil. One of the biggest problems for chain failures is oil sludge and heavy varnish stopping the oil flow. At present in both Fords I own, there is no chain noise. Both using 0-20 oil at 10K OCIs.

tig1. i am not saying that at all. I run 5w20 in modulars, and i did so even on a supercharged GT mustang. Im saying a higher film strength would likely cause less wear on the guides themselves. However, in short the negative effect of running a thicker oil in a modular is not worth it simply to increase the film on the guides. I am a 5w20 fan all the way. Ive owned many modulars and many of those with 250k+ on mostly 5w20. I agree with you. The point i was trying to make is if you are in fact going to run a thicker oil it seems pointless IMO to run anything thicker than 10w30 in one. I should have clarified that i believe overall 5w20 is best. My choice is 5/0w20 for sure.