Oil grade Ford 5.4 3V- I was wrong

[95busa]

Well, after being a thin oil advocate forever, and sticking by 5w-20 for the 3V 5.4 in my F250, I now believe that 5w-20 is not ideal for my engine. I understand these engines to be very "tolerance" dependent, and some engines have different bad or stacked tolerances that produce different symptoms. These engines have a wide range of defects ranging from timing chain tensioners, guides, VCT solenoids, Cam phasers, improper spark plug torque, injectors, exhaust manifolds and cam followers. The range of possible issues make tracking down noises infuriating. I ran my truck yesterday below 20 degrees. I think the added viscosity from the cold weather made the oil unusually thick (Supertech 5w-20 dino). For the first time, there was no ticking. I bought seven quarts of Supertech 10w-40, and I am going to give it a test run when the snow melts. I may just roll with that OASIS message recommending 10w-40 for 5.4 3Vs that tick if that does the trick. Not ripping on these engines- a company I worked for had a fleet of about 8 F250/150 with this engine with 100K+ miles on some of them used as service trucks with highly indifferent maintenance, and they were absolutely fine, no noises, ran great. However, I have heard two ticking 5.4s, it is annoying. Anyway- I am admitting defeat on 5w-20 for 3V Ford V8s. After seeing data on VCT operation, I believe heavier oil is fine, and possibly even the way to go.

 

[DSparks]

+1000000..on the heavier oil in the 3v engines...5 of our 8 are 5.4 3v and we run 10w30 conventional fleet oil...no issues..way quieter especially when hot....we have to run 15w50 in one of them or it runs like absolute [censored] at idle and just above idle(phaser issue).

 

[pbm]

I would go up in oil weight incrementally starting with 5w30 then 10w30 etc...I doubt you need to jump directly to 10w40.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.

 

[Doog]

Using Supertech oil might be part of the issue. I would have tried PYB 10w30 first.

 

[jaynissan12]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


Yes and no, there was a tsb on the issue recommending 10w40 to help reduce the ticking. Not many are going to want to spend thousands just to correct an irritation, like replacing phasers etc and all the work that entails (assuming its not bad enough for it to make noise under a load). While some are lucky as yourself with no ticking noise, others are not lucky and ford has admitted to the noisy nature of the engine and its design/faulty parts used. Personally I wouldn't go tearing down an engine unless it was an issue that possibly leads to eminent failure.

So just for ticking but not bad enough (if its cam phasers) to cause heavy valve rattle during warm/hot operation, a heavier oil to "quieten" can be the ticket to some peace of mind. I have heard one with the cam phaser problem and it just comes and goes (this is while hot and under a load), not constant and he agreed that its not worth thousands in repairs when you just run the engine, if something happens to it, just replace the engine, cost will not be much more if you look hard enough.

Brother in law has an 04 F150 with the same engine, never ticked but be danged if it didn't throw a rod. I have an 06 expedition that is noisy on start up but quietens down when warm, not planning on doing a thing to it, it runs fine and warm operation is where it counts and trust me I have tried different weights, filters etc, same result. Could be a lot of things causing the lifter like tick, but since its not affecting how it runs or check engine lights, I am not going to worry about it.

 

[-SyN-]

After hearing for years that Ford engineers designed this engine around 5W-20-->I had enough of the [censored]!! 5 years ago my son and I chose to switch to M1 0W-40 and ignored all the so called owners who think they Know Everything!!!

The 5.4L 3V did not Grenade like most said it would...

The 5.4L actually stopped using 1/2 qt of oil between the 8K mile OCI...There is virtually No oil used between our OCI and the motor is very smooth and quiet! Totally discrediting those who opposed the switch...
The 0W-40 has not effected the VVT system like many had stated it would... The only draw back is Kole lost about 1/2mpg in fuel consumption on his trips to college according to his Edge!

The 5.4L 3V now has 204K miles on it and compression is still Very good in all cylinders and not one internal issues to date... Kole still has 3 more years of college left so I figure the engine will have at least 350K miles on it when he graduates engineering school... He has mentioned a few times at oil change--->Dad we are not putting 5W-20 back in here are we? I think He liked the change! I don't know! Never asked!

This is only our Personal Experience nothing more!

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Using Supertech oil might be part of the issue. I would have tried PYB 10w30 first.

I doubt it. I ran Motorcraft synblend 5w-20 and Mobil 5000 5w-20 as well, all with motorcraft filters. It always ticked.

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: pbm
I would go up in oil weight incrementally starting with 5w30 then 10w30 etc...I doubt you need to jump directly to 10w40.

10w-40 is what ford specified as a fix in a TSB. I was torn between 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40. I am going to run the 10w-40 and see how it works.

 

[95busa]

By the way, this truck only has 65 or 66K miles on it. It is not what I would think is worn out by any means.

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


Yes and no, there was a tsb on the issue recommending 10w40 to help reduce the ticking. Not many are going to want to spend thousands just to correct an irritation, like replacing phasers etc and all the work that entails (assuming its not bad enough for it to make noise under a load). While some are lucky as yourself with no ticking noise, others are not lucky and ford has admitted to the noisy nature of the engine and its design/faulty parts used. Personally I wouldn't go tearing down an engine unless it was an issue that possibly leads to eminent failure.

So just for ticking but not bad enough (if its cam phasers) to cause heavy valve rattle during warm/hot operation, a heavier oil to "quieten" can be the ticket to some peace of mind. I have heard one with the cam phaser problem and it just comes and goes (this is while hot and under a load), not constant and he agreed that its not worth thousands in repairs when you just run the engine, if something happens to it, just replace the engine, cost will not be much more if you look hard enough.

Brother in law has an 04 F150 with the same engine, never ticked but be danged if it didn't throw a rod. I have an 06 expedition that is noisy on start up but quietens down when warm, not planning on doing a thing to it, it runs fine and warm operation is where it counts and trust me I have tried different weights, filters etc, same result. Could be a lot of things causing the lifter like tick, but since its not affecting how it runs or check engine lights, I am not going to worry about it.

I agree. About the farthest I want to go with playing with the VCT system is upgrading to the "B" type VCT solenoids, which I will probably do on general principles. The problem with these engines as I understand it is that the design does not lend itself to working well with "stacked" tolerances....in other words say five parts are all in tolerance, but at the high or low end of the bell curve. These parts, when working together, because they are too far collectively from the ideal tolerances then fail to work well together. Thats where you get noisy operation, shearing phaser pins, etc. If the engines were "blueprinted" by hand, they would be amazing, and some are. But those with "stacked" tolerances exhibit a wide variety of noises and problems.

 

[-SyN-]

Before Kole left for college his 5.4L had a tick on the drivers side... #5 cylinder. Mechanic replaced all plugs and checked compression in all cylinders...

#5 plug was wore enough where there was a slight misfire! Not enough to throw a CEL or Code! Had all 8 replaced and after start up tick was gone... This motor is not quiet by any means but there is no tick!

Many owners have had cracked exhaust manifolds which caused the so called tick! Replaced manifold and tick was gone...

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: -SyN-
Before Kole left for college his 5.4L had a tick on the drivers side... #5 cylinder. Mechanic replaced all plugs and checked compression in all cylinders...

#5 plug was wore enough where there was a slight misfire! Not enough to throw a CEL or Code! Had all 8 replaced and after start up tick was gone... This motor is not quiet by any means but there is no tick!

Many owners have had cracked exhaust manifolds which caused the so called tick! Replaced manifold and tick was gone...


I have been unable to see/feel an exhaust leak, although it sounds a lot like one. I checked the whole thing out with a stethascope, and it seems to be coming from the phaser area. I almost wish it was an exhaust leak, 'cause I would throw some headers on it and call it good! Yesterday pretty much convinced me that it just needs a heavier grade of oil. As soon as it warms up the 10w-40 is going in. I may check the plugs, I am kind of hesitant to check the plugs for fear of breaking them. I plan on changing them around 80K, and I will buy the broken plug tool before I do. Probably replace them with the champion 1 piece plug.

 

[DemoFly]

Everyone I know who owns a 3V is a hypochondriac about their engine. I think some spend more money on "repairs" and "diagnosis" then they would for an entire engine swap.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: jaynissan12
Yes and no, there was a tsb on the issue recommending 10w40 to help reduce the ticking.

Not a TSB--it was an OASIS message that has mutated into a "cure". I have never found the original of this document only this same copy that has floated around the web (the underlining of "10W-40" in the document is the tell-tale). BDCardinal may be able to help out on this one. Since the 3V engines were in use until 2014, one could think that Ford either fixed the issue starting in 2011 or there was never an update to the OASIS. In any event, here it is...

 

[steve20]

Re checking for exhaust leak
What I have done in the past is to get some fogging oil in aerosol (Advance or Zone). Find an area past your MAF so you don't get oil spray on any electrical components in the intake tract. Have someone spray away till it starts to smoke out the tailpipe while you look around the engine compartment/underneath for smoke which will be coming from your exhaust leak, if there is one
Steve

 

[MNgopher]

Agree with demofly. The amount of work people put into chasing noises that often have no impact on reliability or performance on these engines never ceases to amaze me.

Are there units with some issues? yes. Are there plenty of these units that are just noisy with no issues? Yes.

I choose to run a name brand 5w20 oil and change it every 5000 miles in my '04 F150 with the 5.4 3V. Yes, it is a noisier engine than many. It runs fine with 158,000 on the clock, same as all the units we have in fleet use. No special treatment or thicker oils used there. Just the nature of the beast.

 

[donnyj08]

Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


^ this ive had a 5.4 3V in the past. sure you can use a thick oil and mask the phaser and chain/guide noise. that is until the chain gets too loose and breaks a guide, causing the engine to loose time. The proper fix is to buy the updated phaser with a coil dowl. most 5.4's after 2009 had the updated phaser. also while there replace the timing chains and guides. its a good idea to buy the kits that include new cam and crank gears as well as new tensioners. IMO it is unwise to just replace the chain and guides, and not the gears. you wouldn't put a new chain on a motorcycle and leave old sprockets on if you want the combo to last. it is the same with these engines. fix the issue and you wont need to cover up a loose coiled phaser/loose chain or broken guide noise.

if you only have 65k miles i would just live with the noise...unless it is audible noise coming from the chain/guide on start up. in this case it would be wise to make sure a guide hasnt broke. ive seen it before on a modular as early as 80k miles. very uncommon until very high mileage, but it can happen. the guides are usually the first things to wear out in a modular from my experience. Well, with the exception of the powdered metal rods breaking on mustangs..

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: steve20
Re checking for exhaust leak
What I have done in the past is to get some fogging oil in aerosol (Advance or Zone). Find an area past your MAF so you don't get oil spray on any electrical components in the intake tract. Have someone spray away till it starts to smoke out the tailpipe while you look around the engine compartment/underneath for smoke which will be coming from your exhaust leak, if there is one
Steve

I am going to try that next oil change- great idea

 

[95busa]

Originally Posted By: donnyj08
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Is not the heavier oil simply "masking" an issue? Heavier oil is not correcting the actual problem. My 3V had 5W-20 for about the first 100K of its life and now I am running 0W-20. No problems to date; it does not mean there may not be, but heavier oil will not be the solution when it does.


^ this ive had a 5.4 3V in the past. sure you can use a thick oil and mask the phaser and chain/guide noise. that is until the chain gets too loose and breaks a guide, causing the engine to loose time. The proper fix is to buy the updated phaser with a coil dowl. most 5.4's after 2009 had the updated phaser. also while there replace the timing chains and guides. its a good idea to buy the kits that include new cam and crank gears as well as new tensioners. IMO it is unwise to just replace the chain and guides, and not the gears. you wouldn't put a new chain on a motorcycle and leave old sprockets on if you want the combo to last. it is the same with these engines. fix the issue and you wont need to cover up a loose coiled phaser/loose chain or broken guide noise.

if you only have 65k miles i would just live with the noise...unless it is audible noise coming from the chain/guide on start up. in this case it would be wise to make sure a guide hasnt broke. ive seen it before on a modular as early as 80k miles. very uncommon until very high mileage, but it can happen. the guides are usually the first things to wear out in a modular from my experience. Well, with the exception of the powdered metal rods breaking on mustangs..

Great input- let me ask this though. If the heavier oil makes the engine quieter, could it not be that the heavier oil provides a thicker film that actually provides better protection for noisy chains and guides? I get the whole band-aid thing, but if it makes the noise go away I think it could be because it is actually doing something good. As for the phasers, at this point in my financial life I would probably have to lock them. Changing phasers, chain tensioners, guides, chains etc is a no-go. Like I said before, changing solenoids for the upgraded B types is about as far as I am going to go for money/time reasons right now.