Oil for Reman 3.5L Ecoboost - Timing Chain Stretch

[jorton]

Originally Posted By: jorton
It's a good idea to look at the oil filter. Use one that prevents oil from draining back into the sump when the vehicle is parked.

Did Ford spec 5w-30 for any Ecoboost model in it's first year of production? When the spec is changed from 5w-20 to 5w-30 in a tsb that just sounds like a bandaid to mask a mechanical defect.

The best insurance will be to prevent dry starts with a quality oil filter.


And at oil changes pre-filling the filter prevents dry start up after an oc.

 

[TFB1]

Changing the oil spec to 5W-30 in the second year of production clearly indicates(at least to me) there was concern the 5W-20 may not be sufficient under all conditions... As for me, ANY boosted engine is going to get a euro spec full synthetic 0/5W-40...

 

[3311]

Xw40, an oversized syn filter if possible, and a coolant bypass filter. The coolant filter will help extend the life of the pump seal and thus the bearing.....

 

[Quest]

Personally, I don't nurse a poorly designed/executed engine.

IMO I'd cut the loss and sell it in the used car market.

I'll turn around and find myself a decently engineered automobile and then take it from there onwards (to a very very high mileage). At least I can sleep well in the night.

Of course, that's just me. I don't debate on which oil will keep your t-chain running longer/less stretch, or which dark forest motor oil will keep your water pump from failing again....

Q.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ I agree.^^ I would cut my losses as well and move on.

 

[3311]

Is the oil pump bearing sealed or part of the pressurized circuit? Maybe a hm oil like M1 10w30 or 10w 40 if oil is in contact with water pump seal.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
That's a silly design having the water pump driven off the timing chain. Goodbye engine when it fails.


Goodby engine if the serpentine goes on a regular setup. What is more likely to happen: serpentine breaks, or timing chain breaks?

Personally I'd rather have it on the serpentine, whole lot easier to replace that belt, or the water pump for the matter. Can't remember the last time I had a serpentine fail either. Just need to point out that, for the typical driver who is apt to ignore any and all ights on the dashboard, this Ford setup is probably more "safe".

 

[artificialist]

Using a different kind of oil might help, but from what I see, nothing can save you from a bad timing chain design.

When dealing with the Mitsubishi Evo X for example, it wasn't rare for a 2008 Evo X to have a timing chain stretch excessively. By 2010, they redesigned the chain, and problems were rare. This is in a community where people change their oil on schedule and with full syn. The car calls for 5w30, but some people use 0w40 as well, but that didn't seem to prevent the problem.

In order to prevent people from driving too far on a failing chain, the 4B11 series engine tensioner has a sensor on it. If the tensioner has to compensate for excessive slack, a huge warning is displayed on the instrument cluster.

 

[threeputtpar]

When I was considering purchasing a 2010MY Taurus SHO, my research showed that the reason Ford speced a 5W-20 in the EcoBoost was because the engine didn't yet have VVT. In 2011, VVT was added and then the spec went to a 5W-30. This is the first that I'm seeing anything about the 2010 engine having VVT. Maybe the Flex got the VVT early? I really don't know.

For your original question, go with M1 0W-40 and the Motorcraft filter at 5k mile intervals.

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

Won't be buying anything from Ford anytime soon with V6 Ecoboost Engine! Just one Reason why I bought a RAM!

 

[abs]

UPDATE:

Dealer confirms that the engine is knocking. I'm assuming at least one damaged crank bearing causing the issue. Ford zero hours reman engine is going in this week.

I could use some input on any special additives required for the initial startup of the reman engine. I'm assuming Ford Dealer will plan to simply use Motorcraft 5w-20, crank the engine a few times to circulate the oil and start it up. Is this sufficient or does anything more need to be added to the oil, such as a high ZDDP break-in additive?

Please see replies to earlier posts below:


Originally Posted By: Clevy
Friction modifiers like moly lessen drag on anything that touches. So using an oil with lots of them should reduce stretch.
Using mos2 in a ford mod motor my 300k chains were the same length as new ones(I had spares,spare heads too)and the chains on that engine are just as long as the ones in question.
I used mos2 in mine.


This is a good recommendation. After break-in on the reman engine is complete, I'm going to use an oil with a good dose of moly to help reduce chain/guide wear.

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Try some of that HDEO Chevron 10W-30.


I'll look into that Chevron product. My only concern would be possible impact to the cats from the higher Z and P in it. Thoughts?

Originally Posted By: Garak
SAPS levels are lower in some of the HDEOs than in A3/B3 A3/B4 type oils. Rotella synthetic 5w-40 or what's in my sump would cover that off. If you want a low phosphorous HDEO that still has an HTHS of 3.5 or greater and good TBN, there is Delvac 1 LE 5w-30.


I'll investigate that one, thank you.

Originally Posted By: 3311
Is the oil pump bearing sealed or part of the pressurized circuit? Maybe a hm oil like M1 10w30 or 10w 40 if oil is in contact with water pump seal.


I'm not sure about the oil pump setup but the coolant pump seal is exposed to oil on one side and pressurized coolant on the other . . .

Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
When I was considering purchasing a 2010MY Taurus SHO, my research showed that the reason Ford speced a 5W-20 in the EcoBoost was because the engine didn't yet have VVT. In 2011, VVT was added and then the spec went to a 5W-30. This is the first that I'm seeing anything about the 2010 engine having VVT. Maybe the Flex got the VVT early? I really don't know.

For your original question, go with M1 0W-40 and the Motorcraft filter at 5k mile intervals.


The 2010-2012 3.5L Ecoboost has a VVT configuration on, I beleive, the intake cams. The exhaust cams are fixed. Beginning in 2013, it is my understanding that both intake and exhaust cams are variable.

I am definitely considering the Mobil 1 0W-40 option.

 

[badtlc]

moly......lots and lots of moly.

 

[BikeWhisperer]

I am currently running Castrol Edge 5w-30 but will be switching to Edge 0w-40 (ie German Castrol) from this point on. I also use a 300ml can of Lubrimoly MOS2 in my Eco-Bost. There is some fuel dilution that is common with TGDI engines. Yet another reason to run the 0w-40.

Ford has sold over 500k F150's with the 3.5l Eco-Boost alone. Take 500k of anything and there are going to be a few lemons in the group. Until there are widespread documented issues, then I'd hesitate to make any judgement. Ford has been hedging their bets on the Eco-Boost engines, they aren't going to just sit back and let their bread winner (the F150) flame out.

Unfortunately these online forums attract a lot of the tin-foil hat crowd who will take one or two failures and apply it to ALL product. One failure is just that...one failure. Show me a hundred failures under similar conditions, and now you'll have an argument to make.

 

[abs]

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer
I am currently running Castrol Edge 5w-30 but will be switching to Edge 0w-40 (ie German Castrol) from this point on. I also use a 300ml can of Lubrimoly MOS2 in my Eco-Bost. There is some fuel dilution that is common with TGDI engines. Yet another reason to run the 0w-40.

Ford has sold over 500k F150's with the 3.5l Eco-Boost alone. Take 500k of anything and there are going to be a few lemons in the group. Until there are widespread documented issues, then I'd hesitate to make any judgement. Ford has been hedging their bets on the Eco-Boost engines, they aren't going to just sit back and let their bread winner (the F150) flame out.

Unfortunately these online forums attract a lot of the tin-foil hat crowd who will take one or two failures and apply it to ALL product. One failure is just that...one failure. Show me a hundred failures under similar conditions, and now you'll have an argument to make.


A quick perusal of the F-150 message boards will show clearly that a reasonable number of folks are experiencing issues with the timing chain rattle at startup. This was, I believe, the beginning of the end for my engine. The "rattle" is actually caused by the loose chain vibrating at startup and caused by wear of the guides and/or chain itself. This resulting in a lot of play in the timing system.

Ford has a TSB to replace the chain in the F-150 (but not the other bits and pieces ironically) which does not appear to be solving the noise issue. For the TSB to be put into action, the error on the cam timing has to be more than 6 degrees from ECM target (implying that the chain is out of place to sufficiently rotate the cam into the wrong spot by 6 degrees or more). This is a significant shift in the timing of the engine, it is a real documented issue with a TSB, and it is affecting F-150 owners.

The chain replacement appears to NOT solve the problem on its own in many instances. Over time, the startup rattle will cause additional wear on the components the chain touches. However, on the F-150, it appears the pump is isolated from the lubrication system, so the failure mode I experienced should not occur on the F-150s. On the other version of the 3.5L Ecoboost, the water pump shaft and bearing are at risk. I agree with you that time will tell if how big an issue this will be for Ford.

Just remember, I experienced the rattle starting at around 75k miles and the engine failure at around 100k miles, I would guess that relatively few folks have that kind of mileage on non F-150 Ecoboosts so far . . .

For anyone with the "rattle" get your chain, tensioners, guides and water pump (on non F-150 implementations) replaced ASAP.

 

[Greasymechtech]

I'd use any 0w40 or 5w40

Use a full flow filter with silicone ADBV. OE oil filter is fine.

Stick with
Good luck with your new engine

 

[wemay]

If actually a design defect (which it clearly appears to be in your EB at least) and the new chain isnt a fix, my only concern is that the oil recomendations may only be a bandaid that actually works in Ford's favor by delaying the inevitable until you are then, out of warranty and stuck.

 

[BikeWhisperer]

Originally Posted By: abs

A quick perusal of the F-150 message boards will show clearly that a reasonable number of folks are experiencing issues with the timing chain rattle at startup. This was, I believe, the beginning of the end for my engine. The "rattle" is actually caused by the loose chain vibrating at startup and caused by wear of the guides and/or chain itself. This resulting in a lot of play in the timing system.

Ford has a TSB to replace the chain in the F-150 (but not the other bits and pieces ironically) which does not appear to be solving the noise issue. For the TSB to be put into action, the error on the cam timing has to be more than 6 degrees from ECM target (implying that the chain is out of place to sufficiently rotate the cam into the wrong spot by 6 degrees or more). This is a significant shift in the timing of the engine, it is a real documented issue with a TSB, and it is affecting F-150 owners.

The chain replacement appears to NOT solve the problem on its own in many instances. Over time, the startup rattle will cause additional wear on the components the chain touches. However, on the F-150, it appears the pump is isolated from the lubrication system, so the failure mode I experienced should not occur on the F-150s. On the other version of the 3.5L Ecoboost, the water pump shaft and bearing are at risk. I agree with you that time will tell if how big an issue this will be for Ford.

Just remember, I experienced the rattle starting at around 75k miles and the engine failure at around 100k miles, I would guess that relatively few folks have that kind of mileage on non F-150 Ecoboosts so far . . .

For anyone with the "rattle" get your chain, tensioners, guides and water pump (on non F-150 implementations) replaced ASAP.


It's the F-150 Forums (especially the F-150 Eco-Boost Forum) that seems to have the highest density of the tin foil hat wearing crowd. If you believe those forums you MUST put dual catch cans and drill holes in your CAC or your eco-boost engine will die a terrible fiery death!!!

I'm not discounting what happened to you and I'm sure some of the posts on other Forums are valid. But a handful out of 500k is a very low percentage. You'd have to have 5000 engines (in just f-150's) have this problem to just get to 1%!

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: abs
UPDATE:





Originally Posted By: 3311
Is the oil pump bearing sealed or part of the pressurized circuit? Maybe a hm oil like M1 10w30 or 10w 40 if oil is in contact with water pump seal.


I'm not sure about the oil pump setup but the coolant pump seal is exposed to oil on one side and pressurized coolant on the other . . .
0


Sorry, I meant to say water pump not oil pump.

I would without question be running a thicker(then xw20) syn HM oil like M1 5w30, 10w30 or even 10w40. Moly & higher zinc levels and seal conditioners to help with that critical water pump seal.

 

[abs]

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer

It's the F-150 Forums (especially the F-150 Eco-Boost Forum) that seems to have the highest density of the tin foil hat wearing crowd. If you believe those forums you MUST put dual catch cans and drill holes in your CAC or your eco-boost engine will die a terrible fiery death!!!

I'm not discounting what happened to you and I'm sure some of the posts on other Forums are valid. But a handful out of 500k is a very low percentage. You'd have to have 5000 engines (in just f-150's) have this problem to just get to 1%!


LOL! I doubt all those owners across the various F-150 boards where these issues are being reported are wearing "tin foil hats". Most of them aren't running catch cans or doing anything special other than driving their vehicles same as any of us would. With respect to the F-150 Eco-boost Forum specifically, I really have no idea what the crew looks like. The extent of my research has focused researching the timing chain questions and not looking deeply into the personas of the individuals reporting problems. I think I've seen these reports on at least 3 different F-150 message boards.

Your logic makes sense with respect to percentages of vehicles, however we are missing one key piece of information: how many units are experiencing reported problems. We have to remember that most folks do not jump on the forums and start posting. For every one issue reported on the forums there are likely multiples more that go unreported. How many though? The fact that Ford has a TSB shows this to be a documented issue of enough scale to warrant the TSB in the first place. Do you know what % of vehicles have to have the issue to cause a TSB to be produced? To me that is a good indication of at least a low threshold for the scope of the issue (i.e. there were enough reports and issue that the TSB was produced and circulated - it was not a single isolated event).

How many miles do you have on your F-150 EB so far? I hope you don't experience the problem. Like yourself, my attitude was to simply take good care of the engine, change the oil regularly, use good quality oils, etc. Yet, I still had the failure. I'm not assuming everyone will have this experience, yet I also doubt I'll be the only one . . .

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
Won't be buying anything from Ford anytime soon with V6 Ecoboost Engine! Just one Reason why I bought a RAM!


Don't speak too loud. When you right head light, left rear brake light or horn randomly don't work because of TIPM failure ... and you have all sorts of electrical problems ...

Originally Posted By: CT8
Class action suite. Poor engineers not an oz. of common sense.
Their Superdutys with the cab removal for major work is a screw the owner design.


That's a way for dealers to get paid 8 hours book rate for cutting a job down to 4. It's not required. You could pull the cab off of a GM, Dodge ... er "RAM" and accomplish the same thing.