Oil for Reman 3.5L Ecoboost - Timing Chain Stretch

[abs]

Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
F150 water pump is external eliminating the coolant in oil problem.


Thank you for the info, I was not aware of that fact. I suppose that Ford decided it was a good idea to address the design flaw in the F-150 engine. On the other hand, it's a shame that they only fixed it there. For instance, a quick part look up shows that the water pump on the 2015 Flex with Ecoboost still has the water pump inside the timing cover and remains driven by the timing chain.

 

[SoNic67]

People keep saying is the chain that "stretched". But if you measure the old and the new one you will see that they are identical to 1/16". Is the tensioner and guides that fail and of course at that point there is nothing to take up the 2-3" of slack that's there because of the design.
Other Ford engines have the same issue - for example the 4.0L OHC in the Explorers (up to 2002).

BTW, the water pump driven by timing chain is still better than driven by timing belt like in many Hyundai, Kia, Toyota DOHC engines...

 

[Roadkingnc]

Yes the car engine still has the internal pump, I am a tech at a ford dealership and have been for 27 years. I have put a few pumps in the 3.5, not a lot though so the failure rate is really pretty low. I just worked on an edge with the 3.5l, 212k miles original water pump and timing components. The cooling fan failed.
The 3.5l with the internal pump has a weep hole from the pump exiting the block near the a/c compressor, it usually starts weeping from there before the bearing in the pump gets really bad causing coolant to enter the oil system.

 

[jorton]

It's a good idea to look at the oil filter. Use one that prevents oil from draining back into the sump when the vehicle is parked.

Did Ford spec 5w-30 for any Ecoboost model in it's first year of production? When the spec is changed from 5w-20 to 5w-30 in a tsb that just sounds like a bandaid to mask a mechanical defect.

The best insurance will be to prevent dry starts with a quality oil filter.

 

[abs]

Originally Posted By: SoNic67
People keep saying is the chain that "stretched". But if you measure the old and the new one you will see that they are identical to 1/16". Is the tensioner and guides that fail and of course at that point there is nothing to take up the 2-3" of slack that's there because of the design.
Other Ford engines have the same issue - for example the 4.0L OHC in the Explorers (up to 2002).

BTW, the water pump driven by timing chain is still better than driven by timing belt like in many Hyundai, Kia, Toyota DOHC engines...


Thank you for the explanation. So what oil attributes will best preserve the tensioner and guides?

Also, why is a timing chain driven water pump a better setup than a timing belt driven water pump? To me, a belt driven pump is positioned outside the lubrication system in the vast majority of cases (I realize there are "wet belts" too). I would have much preferred a planned belt replacement at 90k versus a new engine at 100k.

 

[abs]

Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
Yes the car engine still has the internal pump, I am a tech at a ford dealership and have been for 27 years. I have put a few pumps in the 3.5, not a lot though so the failure rate is really pretty low. I just worked on an edge with the 3.5l, 212k miles original water pump and timing components. The cooling fan failed.
The 3.5l with the internal pump has a weep hole from the pump exiting the block near the a/c compressor, it usually starts weeping from there before the bearing in the pump gets really bad causing coolant to enter the oil system.


Thank you for your input, it's appreciated coming from an individual with first hand knowledge of the issue.

There may have been some coolant coming out the weep hole, but none that I specifically observed. The Flex has a belly pan, so any coolant which might have leaked out would have dropped into the pan and not on the ground where I could have observed or noticed it.

I'm also not aware of any reference to the weep hole or the risk of this failure mode in the Owner's manual. At a minimum, Ford should have mention of this as something to watch out for.

In my research I have learned that the 3.5 naturally aspirated engine can have a long life expectancy on the water pump. In the Ecoboost, I believe the forces acting on the chain are greater due to the cam driven high pressure fuel pump and the lifter design/configuration.

I've replaced water pumps, radiators, hoses on other vehicles. It never dawned on me that the water pump was inside the timing chain cover and could fail like this, shame on me for not knowing I guess. Expensive lesson learned. Shame on Ford for engineering it that way in the first place.

 

[abs]

Originally Posted By: jorton
It's a good idea to look at the oil filter. Use one that prevents oil from draining back into the sump when the vehicle is parked.

Did Ford spec 5w-30 for any Ecoboost model in it's first year of production? When the spec is changed from 5w-20 to 5w-30 in a tsb that just sounds like a bandaid to mask a mechanical defect.

The best insurance will be to prevent dry starts with a quality oil filter.


The Motorcraft filter for this engine is the FL-500s. It's made by Purolator, has a silicon anti-drainback valve, a paper element and a bypass at the bottom (solid side) of the filter. By all accounts it's a very good quality filter.

With respect to full flow spin-on filters, I think only a cellulose media filter like the Mobil 1 filter would be better due to the media type and the bypass being at the front (open end) of the filter instead of at the back.

Ford specified a 5w-20 oil only for the 2010 model year Ecoboost 3.5 engines. Beginning in 2011, the spec changed to 5w-30. No TSB has ever been issued regarding recommended oil specifications for the 2010 model year Ecoboost.

 

[OneEyeJack]

Keep us updated.

 

[Kuato]

Originally Posted By: Roadkingnc
Yes the car engine still has the internal pump, I am a tech at a ford dealership and have been for 27 years. I have put a few pumps in the 3.5, not a lot though so the failure rate is really pretty low. I just worked on an edge with the 3.5l, 212k miles original water pump and timing components. The cooling fan failed.
The 3.5l with the internal pump has a weep hole from the pump exiting the block near the a/c compressor, it usually starts weeping from there before the bearing in the pump gets really bad causing coolant to enter the oil system.


Great info, thanks.

[hijack]Can you tell me the water pump position on the '13 5.0 in the F150?[/hijack]

 

[sciphi]

That's a silly design having the water pump driven off the timing chain. Goodbye engine when it fails.

Running a good 0w-40 should help shearing and fuel dilution issues.

 

[Pontual]

Don't go revving up and down with the shifter in neutral (like motorcyclists keep doing in redlight). The drive train is heavy and changing speeds is very hard on these chains. That's one of the most owner induced cause for chain stress. Also change the engine oils with at least semi-synthetic in shorter periods for turbo engines, since insolubles tend to be abrasive and are poison to chains. Idle a little to cool down things before shutdown, decreasing that way insoluble production.

 

[CT8]

Class action suite. Poor engineers not an oz. of common sense.
Their Superdutys with the cab removal for major work is a screw the owner design.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: SoNic67

BTW, the water pump driven by timing chain is still better than driven by timing belt like in many Hyundai, Kia, Toyota DOHC engines...


Hyundai/KIA Theta II 2.4L/2.0T (2010-) are timing chain. No idea concerning Toyota.

 

[SoNic67]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: SoNic67

BTW, the water pump driven by timing chain is still better than driven by timing belt like in many Hyundai, Kia, Toyota DOHC engines...


Hyundai/KIA Theta II 2.4L/2.0T (2010-) are timing chain. No idea concerning Toyota.

First of all we are talking about V6 with pump in between banks here. And yes, Hyundai/Kia put the chain in after 2002, all the previous years V6's used belts. I guess they learned a lesson. I have one of the previous years V6 that has the pump exactly in the middle:

Something needed to be there for routing purposes.
So my point - it is not such an "unheard, bad engineering" decision.
PS: For newer engines, BorgWarner Morse TEC supplies the complete timing system which uses the company's proprietary silent timing chains. At lest they knew that they cannot do one by themselves. Not to last 100K miles per their warranty.

 

[OneEyeJack]

Poor design is getting to be a plague. A co-worker has a supercharged Mini. It has a vacuum pump driving off the timing chain. The pump failed followed by the whole engine. The dealer estimate was over $7K. If you want to see our co-worker's blood boil all you have to do is ask him about his Mini.

 

[Clevy]

Friction modifiers like moly lessen drag on anything that touches. So using an oil with lots of them should reduce stretch.
Using mos2 in a ford mod motor my 300k chains were the same length as new ones(I had spares,spare heads too)and the chains on that engine are just as long as the ones in question.
I used mos2 in mine.

 

[Merkava_4]

Try some of that HDEO Chevron 10W-30.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: abs
The first concern is the level of SAPs in the diesel oils and the second concern has to do with cold flow properties.

SAPS levels are lower in some of the HDEOs than in A3/B3 A3/B4 type oils. Rotella synthetic 5w-40 or what's in my sump would cover that off. If you want a low phosphorous HDEO that still has an HTHS of 3.5 or greater and good TBN, there is Delvac 1 LE 5w-30.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: SoNic67
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: SoNic67

BTW, the water pump driven by timing chain is still better than driven by timing belt like in many Hyundai, Kia, Toyota DOHC engines...


Hyundai/KIA Theta II 2.4L/2.0T (2010-) are timing chain. No idea concerning Toyota.

First of all we are talking about V6 with pump in between banks here. And yes, Hyundai/Kia put the chain in after 2002, all the previous years V6's used belts.

Something needed to be there for routing purposes.
So my point - it is not such an "unheard, bad engineering" decision.


Glad you cleared up the comparison.

 

[BitterShard]

GF-6 will have a new test for Timing Chain Wear.

"Also like the LSPI test, a Ford 2.0 liter EcoBoost engine will be used to run the chain-wear test."