Oil for 2013 Camaro ZL1 road course application

[userfriendly]

440Magnum's post is so much better than;
"M-1 0W40, done".

Next, if we look at HTHS, throw out both
KV40 and KV100 numbers, the viscosity profile changes
dramatically for a given HTHS target when we compare
mono-grade lubricants to multi-grades.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.

My car has run 300 degree oil temps at Homestead track events with no degradation of M1 0W-40. Per Mobil via email the oil is not harmed even at those temps, and a couple of OA's proved them correct. My engine is as strong as ever even at 103k miles.

Totally in fun, get a Z28!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
Here are two 0W40 contrasting engine oils from Mobil:

0W40 Euro
KV40 75
KV100 13.5
HTHS 3.8
TBN 11.8
SA 1.3
FP 230C

0W40 ESP
KV40 87
KV100 15.2
HTHS NL
VI 186
TBN 7.7
SA .99
CJ-4/SM
Dex 2
FP 225C

Of the two choices, why is the lighter high saps Euro blend being recommended instead of the 0W40 ESP?

Go one step further and you will find that the ESP 5W40 has
a lower KV100 at 14.7 than the 0W40 ESP, and a flash point
of 249C, SA 1.0 TBN 10.1 CJ-4/SM


The Euro oil meets the performance requirements of numerous demanding gasoline applications and has higher levels of AW additives, the ESP oil does not and is designed to be compliant with Diesel emissions equipment.

 

[ccap41]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.

My car has run 300 degree oil temps at Homestead track events with no degradation of M1 0W-40. Per Mobil via email the oil is not harmed even at those temps, and a couple of OA's proved them correct. My engine is as strong as ever even at 103k miles.

Totally in fun, get a Z28!


Didn't the OP say his is putting down right around 600whp though? Factory it probably doesn't have heating issues but when you're extracting an additional 150ish hp..that causes a lot of heat. Especially in a forced induction engine. Not saying you're wrong about his current heating situation..just throwing in my 2 cents.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.



The 24-hour track test is no myth. I've seen teardown engines from them. But I don't know whether or not they run the 24 hours all at once, or accumulate the hours during days. And since the test is run in Michigan, they will not necessarily be getting the extra stress on the cooling system brought on by Texas heat. They do use other tracks for chassis tuning, but I don't know if those are in hot climates.

 

[userfriendly]

My guess is GM track tested the car with 5W30 Dexos 1,
after all, that is the factory fill.
The LS is a very stiff block that does not flex like the
old SBC.
Factor in the air flow at speed, bearing clearance, peak cylinder pressure
and rpm, 5W30 is all that might be needed.

It is also conceivable that Dexos 5W30 has a thicker BOV
than M1 0W40 Euro, which would be a step backward in viscosity.

Now, raise the cylinder pressure, lower the rpm, slow the vehicle and lower the BOV.

Why in this application would you want to rely on AW additives
to save the day?

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
My guess is GM track tested the car with 5W30 Dexos 1,
after all, that is the factory fill.
The LS is a very stiff block that does not flex like the
old SBC.
Factor in the air flow at speed, bearing clearance, peak cylinder pressure
and rpm, 5W30 is all that might be needed.

It is also conceivable that Dexos 5W30 has a thicker BOV
than M1 0W40 Euro, which would be a step backward in viscosity.

Now, raise the cylinder pressure, lower the rpm, slow the vehicle and lower the BOV.

Why in this application would you want to rely on AW additives
to save the day?


But HTHS rules in high stress applications. M1 0w40 starts out at 3.8 HTHS and M1 5w30 starts at 3.1. The 0w40 will form a thicker oil film when new. And despite the fact that it may shear more compared to the 5w30, it will end up with higher HTHS at the end of the process, and will still form a thicker oil film.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
My guess is GM track tested the car with 5W30 Dexos 1,
after all, that is the factory fill.
The LS is a very stiff block that does not flex like the
old SBC.
Factor in the air flow at speed, bearing clearance, peak cylinder pressure
and rpm, 5W30 is all that might be needed.

It is also conceivable that Dexos 5W30 has a thicker BOV
than M1 0W40 Euro, which would be a step backward in viscosity.

Now, raise the cylinder pressure, lower the rpm, slow the vehicle and lower the BOV.

Why in this application would you want to rely on AW additives
to save the day?


Which must be why GM runs M1 0w-40 in their Corvette Race Program then right?

Plus, your posit about BOV I assume lacks any evidence to prop it up, correct? HTHS is higher on the 0w-40, which also happens to be majority PAO, which the DEXOS syblend most certainly isn't.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.

My car has run 300 degree oil temps at Homestead track events with no degradation of M1 0W-40. Per Mobil via email the oil is not harmed even at those temps, and a couple of OA's proved them correct. My engine is as strong as ever even at 103k miles.

Totally in fun, get a Z28!


Didn't the OP say his is putting down right around 600whp though? Factory it probably doesn't have heating issues but when you're extracting an additional 150ish hp..that causes a lot of heat. Especially in a forced induction engine. Not saying you're wrong about his current heating situation..just throwing in my 2 cents.


The more I go away (and actually do a bit of work...) then come back to this thread, the more I wonder if the double overheat might not be a sign that something mechanical got unhappy. Stretched a head bolt and burped some combustion gasses into the cooling system maybe? The proof will be in whether or not it repeats under similar conditions.

I also went back and looked at the original post and noticed that the coolant has been changed to a propylene glycol product. I'm not sure that will make any real-world difference one way or the other. I've never really understood why all those products rave about lowering coolant temps... what really matters is whether the METAL is cooled any better. You can keep the coolant temp down by inhibiting heat transfer from the block to the coolant (eg, by forming a steam blanket on internal coolant passages due to lack of anti-boil and anti-cavitation additives) while leaving the heat transfer from the coolant to radiator unchanged. That wouldn't be a step forward, but the advertizing would make you think so. That's another reason why reducing glycol (wither PG or EG) percentage doesn't always help. There's a balancing act between maximizing the heat capacity of the cooling fluid (pure water is about the best you can get), versus the fact that the lower heat capacity anti-boil components like glycol prevent micro-boiling and steam insulation from occurring.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. ......


I guess his +100 hp mods negate your entire post. Next time read the OP's text.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro
In this shot you can kind of see the heat extractor on the hood.

Yes, I knew that, but was suggesting an even more ducted/vented/heat extractor laden hood (like Gilotti and Pratt & Miller had for the C6 Vettes).

Also, if you (or anyone else on here) are worried about quick oil warm up, you CAN install a thermostat on the (hopefully HUGE, stacked plate) oil to air cooler.

And even though it is very costly, replacing the stock 'semi' dry sump oiling system with a full race, multi-stage external pump, big tank unit from ARE will help to keep the oil temps in check, let you run a thinner oil, and help prevent any type of internal engine damage from high g force cornering oil starvation as well.
Of course that is IF they make one which will fit in your 5th gen.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.

My car has run 300 degree oil temps at Homestead track events with no degradation of M1 0W-40. Per Mobil via email the oil is not harmed even at those temps, and a couple of OA's proved them correct. My engine is as strong as ever even at 103k miles.

Totally in fun, get a Z28!


Didn't the OP say his is putting down right around 600whp though? Factory it probably doesn't have heating issues but when you're extracting an additional 150ish hp..that causes a lot of heat. Especially in a forced induction engine. Not saying you're wrong about his current heating situation..just throwing in my 2 cents.


The more I go away (and actually do a bit of work...) then come back to this thread, the more I wonder if the double overheat might not be a sign that something mechanical got unhappy. Stretched a head bolt and burped some combustion gasses into the cooling system maybe? The proof will be in whether or not it repeats under similar conditions.

I also went back and looked at the original post and noticed that the coolant has been changed to a propylene glycol product. I'm not sure that will make any real-world difference one way or the other. I've never really understood why all those products rave about lowering coolant temps... what really matters is whether the METAL is cooled any better. You can keep the coolant temp down by inhibiting heat transfer from the block to the coolant (eg, by forming a steam blanket on internal coolant passages due to lack of anti-boil and anti-cavitation additives) while leaving the heat transfer from the coolant to radiator unchanged. That wouldn't be a step forward, but the advertizing would make you think so. That's another reason why reducing glycol (wither PG or EG) percentage doesn't always help. There's a balancing act between maximizing the heat capacity of the cooling fluid (pure water is about the best you can get), versus the fact that the lower heat capacity anti-boil components like glycol prevent micro-boiling and steam insulation from occurring.


If the car has propylene glycol in the cooling system, he should dump it immediately. PG has even less cooling ability than EG.

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
A really cheap trick is to use a windshield washer pump with a reservoir. Set up the pump to squirt on the top of the rad and dribble down the tubes. A 50/50 mix of water and alcohol just like in water injection. Just push the button a few times when you start getting hot.

The evaporation right at the radiator tubes will provide a significant boost in cooling due to the latent heat of vaporization.


Good point, totally forgot about this trick. It's really big in the Mini Cooper community.

Originally Posted By: ExMachina

I guess his +100 hp mods negate your entire post. Next time read the OP's text.

Yeah I'm a little over 100 rwhp from when I was bone stock. GM did do a 24 hour continuous endurance test for the ZL1 stopping only for brakes and tires. However if I recall correctly that was at Milford, GM's track up in Michigan. So the environment probably isn't as harsh, but the real difference is the 100+ rwhp. The ZL1's blower is notorious for generating a lot of heat however it can be addressed with a larger reservoir and intercooler both of which I've done. The ECU will start to pull timing when IAT2 temps (post charge) exceed 140 degrees F. I monitor those temps on my HUD and when I'm in boost on a straight I'll spike IAT2 temps generally around 150-160 degrees F, but it falls back down to around 120 F within a second or two coming off the straight. HOWEVER, by mid/late day things will stay hotter longer. The more I think about it the more I suspect the same issue is now apparent in the radiator. It's just rearing its head now because the blower overheating was the weak link but now that is addressed the new "weak link" is the radiator's cooling, or lack thereof.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro

The ZL1's blower is notorious for generating a lot of heat however it can be addressed with a larger reservoir and intercooler both of which I've done. The ECU will start to pull timing when IAT2 temps (post charge) exceed 140 degrees F. I monitor those temps on my HUD and when I'm in boost on a straight I'll spike IAT2 temps generally around 150-160 degrees F, but it falls back down to around 120 F within a second or two coming off the straight. HOWEVER, by mid/late day things will stay hotter longer.


Interesting stuff. Do you know if anybody has done an air-air intercooler conversion on a ZL1? 140-150F intake manifold temperatures sound pretty high for a high performance gasoline engine.

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Interesting stuff. Do you know if anybody has done an air-air intercooler conversion on a ZL1? 140-150F intake manifold temperatures sound pretty high for a high performance gasoline engine.


People have done many different things to aid in cooling the blower. However the IAT2 temps is nothing abnormal, remember this is temp post charge coming out of the blower into the engine. IAT1 temps (going into the blower) are usually within +/- 5-10 degrees F of ambient.

Some people run "chillers" that basically use the AC or some other cooler to get IAT1 temps ~30 degrees below ambient. Works great for drag racing but not a solution for road course.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro
Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Interesting stuff. Do you know if anybody has done an air-air intercooler conversion on a ZL1? 140-150F intake manifold temperatures sound pretty high for a high performance gasoline engine.


People have done many different things to aid in cooling the blower. However the IAT2 temps is nothing abnormal, remember this is temp post charge coming out of the blower into the engine. IAT1 temps (going into the blower) are usually within +/- 5-10 degrees F of ambient.

Some people run "chillers" that basically use the AC or some other cooler to get IAT1 temps ~30 degrees below ambient. Works great for drag racing but not a solution for road course.


When I was running at the Ohio Mile a couple of years ago, I talked with a guy that was running a Cadillac XLR-V with the supercharged Northstar. He had a chiller setup on it, and that was the first time I had seen such a system. I don't recall how fast he went, though.

The beef I have with the air-water intercooler systems is there are two heat exchangers that are less than 100% effective at transferring heat cascading down to ambient. Let's say the supercharger outlet temperature is 300F, and ambient is 90F. If there are two heat exchangers with 90% effectiveness in series, they will have a combined effectiveness of 81%. This means the cooling system will reduce the intake air temperature by 81% of the difference between supercharger outlet and ambient:
Temp drop = (300-90)* .81 = 170F, which would make the intake manifold temperature 130F.

With air-air intercooling, the supercharger heat is transferred directly to ambient temperature. So let's say that an air-air intercooler replaces the air-water system, and also has 90% effectiveness.
Temp drop = (300-90)* .90 = 189F, which would make the intake manifold temperature 111F.

Cooler intake temperature means more knock margin on a supercharged engine, and gives the ability to run higher boost pressure. Racing cars use air-air intercooling because it is the lightest and most effective way of controlling intake manifold temperature.

 

[turtlevette]

People are confusing cooling the intake charge with cooling the oil and water. Cooling the intake charge will make more power and overheat the engine even more.

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Another question for you oil guru's. My second analysis had 2,730 miles on the oil where as this most recent one had 5,029 miles (and twice as many track events). In the comment section Blackstone mentions that normally aluminum shouldn't increase with longer oil runs. But what about iron? Same thing?

Second Oil Analysis: 2,730 miles, Aluminum 15 ppm, Iron 21 ppm.
Third Oil Analysis: 5,029 miles, Aluminum 18 ppm, Iron 30 ppm.

Mileage percent increase: 84.23%
Aluminum percent increase: 20%
Iron percent increase: 42.86%

Are there specific elements you would expect to see a change with as oil change intervals is increased/decreased?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: ccap41
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. Basically, a hot shoe engineer with extensive road course experience runs the Milford course at GM to establish a good time, then they take turns driving it at at least 95% of that pace for 24 hours stopping only for tires.

It's a grueling test, and normally means zero problems at the track. Please be certain your cooling system is vacuum filled and very carefully checked as this may represent some sort of deficiency and not a normal condition. The tuning is also suspect here.

My car has run 300 degree oil temps at Homestead track events with no degradation of M1 0W-40. Per Mobil via email the oil is not harmed even at those temps, and a couple of OA's proved them correct. My engine is as strong as ever even at 103k miles.

Totally in fun, get a Z28!


Didn't the OP say his is putting down right around 600whp though? Factory it probably doesn't have heating issues but when you're extracting an additional 150ish hp..that causes a lot of heat. Especially in a forced induction engine. Not saying you're wrong about his current heating situation..just throwing in my 2 cents.



That was exactly why my post included the reference to tuning. This could be as simple as too much spark advance. But anytime the factory tune is altered you run the risk of issues as no aftermarket tuner ever sweats the details like the factory.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Op, I am frankly amazed that your car overheats at all, as its development includes a 24 hour continuous track test. ......


I guess his +100 hp mods negate your entire post. Next time read the OP's text.

Next time read my entire post. DUH!