Oil for 2013 Camaro ZL1 road course application

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: 3311

If it were mine I would start at 15w50 and a reduced concentration of anti freeze. I don't like straight water.


Do you like pulling the heads and having them milled?

 

[3311]

Well thought out question!!

 

[dailydriver]

Do C&R, Ron Davis or Fluidyne make multi-row racing, drop-in, stock location radiators for the boosted 5th gens yet??

A manual fan switch might also help, but not if the stock radiator cannot keep up with that boosted heat.

A better than the stocker, vented/ducted hood could also help (IF available), and also add a little more front down force as well.

REALLY nice ride

, but this is EXACTLY why I like NA for road race type apps (a la 5th gen Z28), and YES, I have heard of all of the great boosted cars that can turn left and right and brake EXTREMELY well.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
If the different coolant doesn't help enough try running distilled water with water wetter.

As much as it pains me to agree with turtlevette, in this case I have to.

Addressing the water temperature issue makes good sense.

 

[Shannow]

I agree with the group that don't see it, and particularly the UOA as an oil problem.

That being said, you don't know how close you are to having an oil problem, so I'd bump it up a bit to something over 3.5HTHS...I don't think 15W50 range should be a target.

Going too hard on the viscosity will add to your cooling woes. Some of the work your engine is doing to that oil, as well as heating the oil is heating the bearing saddles, cam bearings, and piston skirts/bores and needs to be gotten rid of somehow.

My gut feeling is that you developed a gas bubble (gasket leakage ???) in the coolant in the overheat, that didn't purge during the cool down and re-run, and maybe got moved on during the coolant change...or scale/deposits.

Unless the cooling system is distressed and actively boiling on the metal surfaces, the benefits of the surfactants are minimal. If they are actively boiling, then surfactants can drop the metal temperatures, but no-one is measuring that (to shift more heat they have to make the coolant even hotter if you think about it).

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted By: tiger862
Problem is with coolant not oil. Sounds like lack of air flow to cool. Bigger Flow radiator as well as better water pump for racing. The oil numbers look good but if you did more racing or harder racing then a different oil possibly racing oil. If you pegged the gauge on temp motor should be ok on light driving but not on track as engine could blow. If he was was turning hard when it overheated then you might have to look into a dry sump. All depends on how hard you want to push car.


The OEM oil cooler basically is a liquid to oil cooled unit. It uses engine coolant to run through the cooler, it's basically like a radiator. So I think the real problem is that the engine coolant is trying to cool not only the engine radiator but also the engine oil, via oil cooler. My plan is move to an air-to-oil, oil cooler. I've been following another guy on the Camaro forums and he's using dual air-to-oil coolers and his oil temps have come down a bit along with coolant temps coming down significantly do to the engine coolant no longer needing to cool the engine oil.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410224 http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410224

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I hope he's not running the A/C

Of course not and even if I was, the ZL1 shuts the AC off at over a specific throttle %.

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Do C&R, Ron Davis or Fluidyne make multi-row racing, drop-in, stock location radiators for the boosted 5th gens yet??

A manual fan switch might also help, but not if the stock radiator cannot keep up with that boosted heat.

A better than the stocker, vented/ducted hood could also help (IF available), and also add a little more front down force as well.

REALLY nice ride

, but this is EXACTLY why I like NA for road race type apps (a la 5th gen Z28), and YES, I have heard of all of the great boosted cars that can turn left and right and brake EXTREMELY well.

Yeah Ron Davis makes a radiator. I'm actually running the Ron Davis heat exchanger for the blower. As for the hood, the ZL1 comes with a vented hood for heat extraction and to aid in down force. I agree a N/A car is far better suited for road course events. Unfortunatley I really got into HPDE'ing AFTER I got the car

 

[BaylorCamaro]

In this shot you can kind of see the heat extractor on the hood.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro

The OEM oil cooler basically is a liquid to oil cooled unit. It uses engine coolant to run through the cooler, it's basically like a radiator. So I think the real problem is that the engine coolant is trying to cool not only the engine radiator but also the engine oil, via oil cooler. My plan is move to an air-to-oil, oil cooler. I've been following another guy on the Camaro forums and he's using dual air-to-oil coolers and his oil temps have come down a bit along with coolant temps coming down significantly do to the engine coolant no longer needing to cool the engine oil.


Good plan. Air to oil addition. You don't need to rip out the OEM's oil-to-coolant unit though, I assume you aren't implying that. Once more heat is exiting thru the new addition, its true the existing oil to coolant heat exch will get some help it needs.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro
Originally Posted By: tiger862
Problem is with coolant not oil. Sounds like lack of air flow to cool. Bigger Flow radiator as well as better water pump for racing. The oil numbers look good but if you did more racing or harder racing then a different oil possibly racing oil. If you pegged the gauge on temp motor should be ok on light driving but not on track as engine could blow. If he was was turning hard when it overheated then you might have to look into a dry sump. All depends on how hard you want to push car.


The OEM oil cooler basically is a liquid to oil cooled unit. It uses engine coolant to run through the cooler, it's basically like a radiator. So I think the real problem is that the engine coolant is trying to cool not only the engine radiator but also the engine oil, via oil cooler. My plan is move to an air-to-oil, oil cooler. I've been following another guy on the Camaro forums and he's using dual air-to-oil coolers and his oil temps have come down a bit along with coolant temps coming down significantly do to the engine coolant no longer needing to cool the engine oil.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410224 http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410224

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I hope he's not running the A/C

Of course not and even if I was, the ZL1 shuts the AC off at over a specific throttle %.

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Do C&R, Ron Davis or Fluidyne make multi-row racing, drop-in, stock location radiators for the boosted 5th gens yet??

A manual fan switch might also help, but not if the stock radiator cannot keep up with that boosted heat.

A better than the stocker, vented/ducted hood could also help (IF available), and also add a little more front down force as well.

REALLY nice ride

, but this is EXACTLY why I like NA for road race type apps (a la 5th gen Z28), and YES, I have heard of all of the great boosted cars that can turn left and right and brake EXTREMELY well.

Yeah Ron Davis makes a radiator. I'm actually running the Ron Davis heat exchanger for the blower. As for the hood, the ZL1 comes with a vented hood for heat extraction and to aid in down force. I agree a N/A car is far better suited for road course events. Unfortunatley I really got into HPDE'ing AFTER I got the car

I don't disagree with you putting on an oil-air heat exchanger, but would like to point out that the oil-coolant heat exchanger provides for faster warmup of the oil, and the radiator was sized to provide good cooling even with the heat of the oil being dumped in it. (Heavy duty diesels have used oil-coolant heat exchangers since I don't know when, and they work fine.) With the air-oil cooler on it, just allow a little extra time for the oil to get to operating temperature before hammering it.

But it doesn't hurt to add margin, and rejecting the oil heat through another heat exchanger will help the radiator keep the engine coolant temperature under control. If you keep the fluid temperatures under control, the engine should last a long time.

Have you had any issues with the power steering?

 

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman

I don't disagree with you putting on an oil-air heat exchanger, but would like to point out that the oil-coolant heat exchanger provides for faster warmup of the oil, and the radiator was sized to provide good cooling even with the heat of the oil being dumped in it. (Heavy duty diesels have used oil-coolant heat exchangers since I don't know when, and they work fine.) With the air-oil cooler on it, just allow a little extra time for the oil to get to operating temperature before hammering it.

But it doesn't hurt to add margin, and rejecting the oil heat through another heat exchanger will help the radiator keep the engine coolant temperature under control. If you keep the fluid temperatures under control, the engine should last a long time.

Have you had any issues with the power steering?


Good point about it heating up the oil faster. I've been reading and talking to a couple other Camaro guys that do regular track duty and that was one thing they brought up. However I think the advantage of not having to cool the oil with the coolant out weigh the disadvantage of increased warm up time. I've got several gauges and displays for various fluid temps so it wouldn't be hard for me to monitor the temps until they warm up.

As for power steering, I have had no issues and I'm even running a 19x305x35 square tire set up on the track. However the ZL1 uses electric power steering as opposed to conventional hydraulic power steering pump on an accessory drive.

 

[userfriendly]

Here are two 0W40 contrasting engine oils from Mobil:

0W40 Euro
KV40 75
KV100 13.5
HTHS 3.8
TBN 11.8
SA 1.3
FP 230C

0W40 ESP
KV40 87
KV100 15.2
HTHS NL
VI 186
TBN 7.7
SA .99
CJ-4/SM
Dex 2
FP 225C

Of the two choices, why is the lighter high saps Euro blend being recommended instead of the 0W40 ESP?

Go one step further and you will find that the ESP 5W40 has
a lower KV100 at 14.7 than the 0W40 ESP, and a flash point
of 249C, SA 1.0 TBN 10.1 CJ-4/SM

 

[turtlevette]

A really cheap trick is to use a windshield washer pump with a reservoir. Set up the pump to squirt on the top of the rad and dribble down the tubes. A 50/50 mix of water and alcohol just like in water injection. Just push the button a few times when you start getting hot.

The evaporation right at the radiator tubes will provide a significant boost in cooling due to the latent heat of vaporization.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
A really cheap trick is to use a windshield washer pump with a reservoir. Set up the pump to squirt on the top of the rad and dribble down the tubes. A 50/50 mix of water and alcohol just like in water injection.

The evaporation right at the radiator tubes will provide a significant boost in cooling due to the latent heat of vaporization.


And you'd only need it on the track. Good idea. If you can get a wider spray even better, maybe a t-fitting for multiple outlet points over the radiator.

 

[userfriendly]

I bet the engineers would love to remove the front bumper that the design team insisted on.

 

[ExMachina]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
squirt on the top of the rad and dribble down the tubes.


It'd be nice to automatically have it turn on when coolant temperature reaches 217 degrees using a sender and relay.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: BaylorCamaro



As for power steering, I have had no issues and I'm even running a 19x305x35 square tire set up on the track. However the ZL1 uses electric power steering as opposed to conventional hydraulic power steering pump on an accessory drive.


Oops. Forgot about the electric power steering on the 5th-Gen's. I'm used to my 4th-Gen's hydraulic power steering.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
Here are two 0W40 contrasting engine oils from Mobil:

0W40 Euro
KV40 75
KV100 13.5
HTHS 3.8
TBN 11.8
SA 1.3
FP 230C

0W40 ESP
KV40 87
KV100 15.2
HTHS NL
VI 186
TBN 7.7
SA .99
CJ-4/SM
Dex 2
FP 225C

Of the two choices, why is the lighter high saps Euro blend being recommended instead of the 0W40 ESP?

Go one step further and you will find that the ESP 5W40 has
a lower KV100 at 14.7 than the 0W40 ESP, and a flash point
of 249C, SA 1.0 TBN 10.1 CJ-4/SM


That's an interesting comparison of data. I think people are recommending M1 0w40 because it has more manufacturer approvals in high-performance applications. Being high-SAPS, it has a higher level of ZDDP, which would be directionally correct for wear resistance. The 5w40 ESP has some good characteristics, though.

 

[userfriendly]

Shannow made an interesting point that high viscosity engine
oils would result in more fluid friction.
That friction causes heat for the cooling system to deal with.

Back in the day, 0W40 Esso XD-3 had a KV100 of 15.7 and SA of 1.5.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: used_0il

Of the two choices, why is the lighter high saps Euro blend being recommended instead of the 0W40 ESP?

Go one step further and you will find that the ESP 5W40 has
a lower KV100 at 14.7 than the 0W40 ESP, and a flash point
of 249C, SA 1.0 TBN 10.1 CJ-4/SM


Several reasons, IMO:

1) Most people are recommending a combination of solutions to his problem, including addressing obviously inadequate cooling (whether by adding an oil cooler to "unload" the coolant radiator, or by increasing the coolant radiator capacity and continuing to allow it to also shed the oil heat). Once this is done, there's no need to go to the moon with viscosity, incur additional frictional losses, and have to shed even MORE heat created by an even thicker oil. That's all predicated on the assumption that he wants his performance car to PERFORM, not waste more than the bare necessity of its power shearing molasses in the crankcase.

2) Low-SAPS oils aren't something really in the general train of thought for performance gasoline engines. Yes, there are plenty of times that HDEOs are selected for gasoline applications, but usually its for exactly the opposite reasons one would select a low-SAPS oil. For example, if this were a 1969 Camaro running a flat-tappet big-cammed Z/28 350 on the same duty cycle as he's running his ZL1, then a high-SAPS HDEO like Rotella would be a contender, along with botique oils with high SAPS add packs. But being a modern ZL1, why even wade into the HDEO field at all? Those oils do look interesting and would probably work well enough (with cooling upgrades), but OTOH I don't see that much of a compelling reason to pick them over the higher-SAPS 0w40. You may be onto an idea, but this is why I don't think most folks are going there.

3) Track record (pun very much intended). The 0w40 oils (or a passcar 5w40 like Pennzoil Euro which I mentioned), have a really solid history in applications just like this one, particularly M1 0w40 in recent years. Plus they carry a lot more OEM endorsements, though that's not so much an issue here as 0w40 as a grade is off the reservation for this engine/vehicle combination... but in real-world terms its not THAT far out there from what the factory recommends. Jumping straight to 15w50 or (heaven help us, have we learned nothing from BMW's mistakes?) throwing a 60-weight band-aid on a problem instead of fixing it just seems WRONG with such a nice powerplant as this.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
2) Low-SAPS oils aren't something really in the general train of thought for performance gasoline engines. Yes, there are plenty of times that HDEOs are selected for gasoline applications, but usually its for exactly the opposite reasons one would select a low-SAPS oil.

For gassers, though, I wouldn't call Delvac 1 ESP a low-SAPS oil. A standard GF-5 oil will have lower SA. XOM does endorse the product for high performance gasoline applications. Of course, in the States, given the price of M1 0w-40, there's no reason to look beyond the M1 product. Up here, Delvac 1 is significantly cheaper.