Oil Cavitation Characteristics in Journal Bearings

Status
Not open for further replies.

ZeeOSix

$100 site donor 2022
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
40,498
Location
PNW
Thought this was kind of interesting. Some guys on the Mustang boards think the "BBQ tick" (what Ford calls the "typewriter tick") is due to oil cavitation in the journal bearings. But the BBQ tick in the Coyote acts opposite of what this paper concludes: Cavitation in journal bearings is more prone with 1) higher viscosity oil, 2) higher bearing speed, and 3) lower oil supply pressure.

http://or.nsfc.gov.cn/bitstream/00001903-5/477106/1/1000013598568.pdf
 
No viscosity is actually listed. Kind of worthless with regards to us choosing a higher or lower viscosity than recommended...

Are they comparing with KV100 5 vs 15 cSt? 2 vs 10 cSt? What!?

Bearing characteristics? Are these test bearings comparable to what OEM's are using in the field or completely different? Are the bearings designed for 20W, 30W or what?

Is the "typewriter tick" at low RPM and...low load? I can't imagine it would be noticeable at WOT, over the sound of the engine and exhaust note.
 
It's a spiral wedge bearing, with three oil feed/drain spiral slots in each slot Thus the shape of the cavitation lines, and it's response to supply pressure (more pressure in the slots, the less cavitation when entering the working zone.

The thin oil is around 2cst, the thick about 20 times thicker.

Journal bearings in engines tend to only have one feed, with side leakage for the drainage. They are typically round, although slightly lemon bored, and if grooved, typically circumferentially.

Cavitation will still respond to viscosity and speed, but not to supply pressure as per the paper.

Cavitation usually occurs in the back side of the bearing, where the gap is opening up, and the pressure goes negative...

Journal Bearing Pressures.jpg
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
Cavitation will still respond to viscosity and speed, but not to supply pressure as per the paper.


I would think cavitation is also a function of supply pressure as the paper indicated, regardless of how the bearing is supplied with oil. If the supply pressure is increased, then I would think the 'low pressure zone' in the bearing would also increase, thereby also reducing the likelihood of cavitation.

In the Conclusions section they stated: "... the effect of the input pressure on the cavitation is lar- ger than that of the rotation speed generally."
 
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Is the "typewriter tick" at low RPM and...low load? I can't imagine it would be noticeable at WOT, over the sound of the engine and exhaust note.


Here is Fords SSM (Special Service Message) #7718 about the "typewriter tick". It shows up at low RPM and with oil temperature over 150 F. If it was cavitation inside the bearings it seems the ticking would be more prone to happen with thick cold oil right after a start-up and at higher RPM, as the linked paper concludes. Not all Coyote engines do it. If you want to hear what it sounds like, just search YouTube for 'BBQ tick'.

Here's a few of good examples videos of the ticking noise. The other theory on the cause of this tick is excessive big end rod clearances, which some guys who had their short block replaced said the shop mechanic measured the rod side clearances, and some rods were way beyond max service manual specs. I'm thinking it's mechanical clearance noises, not oil cavitation based on what the paper concluded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLpwesmLAyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ZnyO4JG14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAR77bPJeQ


SSM 1718.JPG
 
I doubt that it's cavitation...

Interesting rabbit hole 'though

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=case1459969270&disposition=inline
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
I doubt that it's cavitation...

Interesting rabbit hole 'though

https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=case1459969270&disposition=inline


Yep, I don't think the Coyote engine "typewriter tick" (as Ford calls it) is oil cavitation. That problem has been around since 2011 and nobody including Ford has definitively said what the cause is.

I think the fact that some ticking engines were found to have excessive rod big end side clearance is the most likely suspect. It took Ford 8 years to say the ticking noise is "normal" and came out with the SSM shown earlier. Yeah, normal noise for parts with too much clearance, lol. I guess Ford was tired of replacjng short blocks under warranty.

Oil cavitation in journal bearings is a pretty complicated phenomenon.
 
Shannow, here's one for you to ponder. Guys who have the engine tick put 300 mL of LiquiMoly "Cera Tec" anti-friction additive into the 10 quart sump, and the ticking almost instantly goes away and doesn't come back during the oil run.

So you think it's possible that if the rod side clearance is excessive, and the friction level of the oil is changed with the additive, that might cause the full floating rods to not jump side to side on the journal as much?

It could also be that the additive provides more impact cushioning between parts, which eliminates the ticking noises.

Two Coyote engines with excessive rod side clearance.

https://youtu.be/SwYxgBh2xe0

https://youtu.be/Zhp0zTXHKPo
 
That would sound like it's the reason for the noise.

Solid lubes probably would help dampen/cushion any impact.

Is it manual or auto cars, or no difference ?

Manual, the thrust bearing is floating too until the clutch is pushed, while an auto, there's typically a thrust that stops the thrust floating.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow
That would sound like it's the reason for the noise.

Solid lubes probably would help dampen/cushion any impact.

Is it manual or auto cars, or no difference ?


Both manual and auto cars can have the ticking issue.

Ford use to have an oil additive called "Motorcraft XL-17? (not sold anymore by Ford) that was basically carbon black that the dealers and Ford field engineers would install to make the ticking go away. Seems like this additive would probably add cushioning between impacting parts. So this kind of points again to slapping big rod ends as the most likely source of the ticking noise.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3082353
 
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Shannow, here's one for you to ponder. Guys who have the engine tick put 300 mL of LiquiMoly "Cera Tec" anti-friction additive into the 10 quart sump, and the ticking almost instantly goes away and doesn't come back during the oil run.

So you think it's possible that if the rod side clearance is excessive, and the friction level of the oil is changed with the additive, that might cause the full floating rods to not jump side to side on the journal as much?

It could also be that the additive provides more impact cushioning between parts, which eliminates the ticking noises.

Two Coyote engines with excessive rod side clearance.

https://youtu.be/SwYxgBh2xe0

https://youtu.be/Zhp0zTXHKPo

I would have thought their MoS2 would have the same effect?
 
OK - please indulge an ignorant question(s).

I opened this thread because the topic sounded interesting, but it was not exactly what I expected. I anticipated it would be general/theoretical and not engine-specific. I know nothing of this particular engine, but it sounds like you all know it well. This is a car I've considered buying someday, so a little skin in the game (little). I know you guys are very knowledgeable, so I ask:

My take is - wholly cow - if big end bearings are bashing about enough to make that noise people are worried about, they are hearing it over the top of head noise, combustion noise, and induction noise, auxiliary motor and belt noise, yada, yada, yada. It has to be LOUD, which implies some tremendous force, and undampened (so cavitation as a cause makes sense, since F=MA and cavitation massively increases "A"). This would have to result in premature failure - is that born out by field use and observations? How big an issue is this with this huge run of vehicles?

Some of these vehicles have to be getting by now into pretty high mileage, is there even anecdotal evidence of anything?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Ford use to have an oil additive called "Motorcraft XL-17? (not sold anymore by Ford) that was basically carbon black



crazy2.gif
shocked2.gif


So much for judging oil by its color.... It would be weird seeing fairly new oil in a gas engine being jet black
 
Originally Posted by Linctex
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Ford use to have an oil additive called "Motorcraft XL-17" (not sold anymore by Ford) that was basically carbon black


crazy2.gif
shocked2.gif


So much for judging oil by its color.... It would be weird seeing fairly new oil in a gas engine being jet black


It was only an 8 oz bottle, so doubt it made the oil much different looking. The crazy thing is adding 8 oz of XL-17 to 8+ qts of oil made the ticking disappear. I just can't see the ticking sound being oil cavitation, but rather parts banging against each other (excessive rod side clearance), and the additive (Cera Tec or XL-17) almost instantly fixed the ticking.


Motorcraft XL-17 Oil Additive-2.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top