Except for the fact that unless it's a sports car, you've shut out about %50 of used-car buyers...
% of all cars sold with manual transmission?
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Originally Posted By: Saturn_Fan
Originally Posted By: skeeter080
I love my stick shift, and the fact that it was around $1000 less than the slushomatic.
...and the fact that is will cost much less $$$ to replace a clutch than a remanufactured automatic tranny which may or may not work correctly.
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild, plus, it isn't uncommon for the clutch to fail before 150k. A lot of automatics last past 150k.
For example, on the Acura TL, a clutch job runs over 2k. An automatic transmission rebuild runs about the same.
Originally Posted By: skeeter080
I love my stick shift, and the fact that it was around $1000 less than the slushomatic.
...and the fact that is will cost much less $$$ to replace a clutch than a remanufactured automatic tranny which may or may not work correctly.
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild, plus, it isn't uncommon for the clutch to fail before 150k. A lot of automatics last past 150k.
For example, on the Acura TL, a clutch job runs over 2k. An automatic transmission rebuild runs about the same.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild
Wow, that's crazy. You'd think that since both jobs involve removing and reinstalling the trans, that the clutch job would be cheaper due to a clutch kit "probably" costing less than a rebuild trans.
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild
Wow, that's crazy. You'd think that since both jobs involve removing and reinstalling the trans, that the clutch job would be cheaper due to a clutch kit "probably" costing less than a rebuild trans.
Originally Posted By: rationull
Originally Posted By: The Critic
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild
Wow, that's crazy. You'd think that since both jobs involve removing and reinstalling the trans, that the clutch job would be cheaper due to a clutch kit "probably" costing less than a rebuild trans.
If the subframe and the suspension have to come out, then it isn't going to be cheap. If you head over to Acurazine, you can read about guys crying over $2500 clutch jobs for their TLs.
Also, I think OriginHacker on this forum had his clutch replaced recently. He had less than 150k on his Sunfire. That job costed him almost $1500. Again, for a Sunfire, rebuilding the automatic would've only costed in a few hundred bucks more.
Originally Posted By: The Critic
I guess you haven't priced out a clutch job on a late model vehicle. It isn't much cheaper than an automatic transmission rebuild
Wow, that's crazy. You'd think that since both jobs involve removing and reinstalling the trans, that the clutch job would be cheaper due to a clutch kit "probably" costing less than a rebuild trans.
If the subframe and the suspension have to come out, then it isn't going to be cheap. If you head over to Acurazine, you can read about guys crying over $2500 clutch jobs for their TLs.
Also, I think OriginHacker on this forum had his clutch replaced recently. He had less than 150k on his Sunfire. That job costed him almost $1500. Again, for a Sunfire, rebuilding the automatic would've only costed in a few hundred bucks more.
The specialized tools for rebuilding an automatic transmission are a downer. I can get a clutch in my saturn with two jack stands and a socket set. Granted, I could get a slushbox out with said sockets... but the problem would be somewhere inside, not obvious, not accessible, and not held to my flywheel with six bolts.
Even on the abovementioned Acura, getting the tranny out is only the start of the battle.
Even on the abovementioned Acura, getting the tranny out is only the start of the battle.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I have a feeling that the weight and power of modern cars is another factor. I sympathize with Nissan's decision not to release their 480+ hp, 3800 lb, fat-tired, AWD sports car with a grind-me lever and a break-me pedal.
Ultimately it all comes down to the same thing: people are lazy and want their cars to be minimally demanding. That's the real crime, IMO. The shrinking market for manual transmissions is just a symptom.
Instead of Nissan's sports car having a break-me pedal, they now have a break-me button on the dashboard.... buy a new GT-R, push the wrong button, grenade the autotrans and pay for it yourself. Up to $20,000 for the new transmission and labor at a Nissan dealership.
http://inventorspot.com/articles/can_nissan_gtr_handle_its_own_engine_18497
As far as dwindling application of manual transmissions, we're seeing the same thing with brakes. It won't be long until you won't even be able to find a car that has manual brakes( no ABS and no stability control) where you actually have control of your braking and can use skill to actually drive, stop and turn the vehicle.
I have a feeling that the weight and power of modern cars is another factor. I sympathize with Nissan's decision not to release their 480+ hp, 3800 lb, fat-tired, AWD sports car with a grind-me lever and a break-me pedal.
Ultimately it all comes down to the same thing: people are lazy and want their cars to be minimally demanding. That's the real crime, IMO. The shrinking market for manual transmissions is just a symptom.
Instead of Nissan's sports car having a break-me pedal, they now have a break-me button on the dashboard.... buy a new GT-R, push the wrong button, grenade the autotrans and pay for it yourself. Up to $20,000 for the new transmission and labor at a Nissan dealership.
http://inventorspot.com/articles/can_nissan_gtr_handle_its_own_engine_18497
As far as dwindling application of manual transmissions, we're seeing the same thing with brakes. It won't be long until you won't even be able to find a car that has manual brakes( no ABS and no stability control) where you actually have control of your braking and can use skill to actually drive, stop and turn the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: firemachine69
Except for the fact that unless it's a sports car, you've shut out about %50 of used-car buyers...
You only need 1 buyer. I've found there are plenty of folks looking for used sticks because they are scarcer.
Except for the fact that unless it's a sports car, you've shut out about %50 of used-car buyers...
You only need 1 buyer. I've found there are plenty of folks looking for used sticks because they are scarcer.
I have sort of a rare van, my 88 E-150 has a 5 speed MT. I've yet to run into another one with a 5 speed. When I take it in for an inspection, alignment, or exhaust work, (3 items I don't/can't do myself) everyone comments. I get offers from people who want to buy it. I enjoy driving it, and would have loved a stick in my Jeep, but that wouldn't fly with the wife!
Frank D
Frank D
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
I cannot remember off the top of my head, but did some study on this in 2006 globally for work.
Europe and the USA are opposites. Most automatics in Europe are high concentrations of certain models, such as big luxo cars like Jags, Mercedes-Benz Es & Ss, BMW 7s, London Taxis, etc. The number is single digits overall. Commerical vehicles are almost all manual.
Similar %, but opposite in the USA: primarily trucks, smaller cars with 4 cylinders, and sports cars. Most commerical large trucks are MTs (Eaton,etc.), but buses, garbage trucks, etc. are AT. Usually Allison.
Japan is binary: most all cars are automatic/CVT (heavy traffic) and almost all performance cars are MT. I saw a billboard for the Mazda 6 over there and you cannot get the regular 6 with a manual and you cannot get the Mazdaspeed 6 with an AT. Most all commerical vehciles are MT.
Korea is a mix. Mainly AT for cars, although there are many more MTs in regular cars than Japan. SUVs are a mix with MT more than AT - fuel economy and emissions regs, plus fuel cost. Commercial trucks are primarily MT.
Australia is mixed. There are a lot of automatics, but also a large percentage of manuals. NZ is different as they absorb a lot of used Japan market RHD cars for cheap (won't pass the tough Japan inspection) so there are a lot of automatics, but imported new cars are often manual.
The rest of the world is primarily manual, but certain models have ATs dominating, because they either are sold in high density traffic areas or are only available in that configuration in the home market.
Generally speaking, very high density areas and North America have more automatics, the rest have manuals for cost, fuel efficiency, and driving fun.
I'll have to see if can dig out the %s across markets. I have it somewhere.
Driving experience - no matter how small or cheap a car is seems to be must have to sell in Europe. Comfort/style is more important in NA, and techy things are big in Japan. That is a sweeping generalization, so there are segments that obviously the opposite in all these markets.
Europe and the USA are opposites. Most automatics in Europe are high concentrations of certain models, such as big luxo cars like Jags, Mercedes-Benz Es & Ss, BMW 7s, London Taxis, etc. The number is single digits overall. Commerical vehicles are almost all manual.
Similar %, but opposite in the USA: primarily trucks, smaller cars with 4 cylinders, and sports cars. Most commerical large trucks are MTs (Eaton,etc.), but buses, garbage trucks, etc. are AT. Usually Allison.
Japan is binary: most all cars are automatic/CVT (heavy traffic) and almost all performance cars are MT. I saw a billboard for the Mazda 6 over there and you cannot get the regular 6 with a manual and you cannot get the Mazdaspeed 6 with an AT. Most all commerical vehciles are MT.
Korea is a mix. Mainly AT for cars, although there are many more MTs in regular cars than Japan. SUVs are a mix with MT more than AT - fuel economy and emissions regs, plus fuel cost. Commercial trucks are primarily MT.
Australia is mixed. There are a lot of automatics, but also a large percentage of manuals. NZ is different as they absorb a lot of used Japan market RHD cars for cheap (won't pass the tough Japan inspection) so there are a lot of automatics, but imported new cars are often manual.
The rest of the world is primarily manual, but certain models have ATs dominating, because they either are sold in high density traffic areas or are only available in that configuration in the home market.
Generally speaking, very high density areas and North America have more automatics, the rest have manuals for cost, fuel efficiency, and driving fun.
I'll have to see if can dig out the %s across markets. I have it somewhere.
Driving experience - no matter how small or cheap a car is seems to be must have to sell in Europe. Comfort/style is more important in NA, and techy things are big in Japan. That is a sweeping generalization, so there are segments that obviously the opposite in all these markets.
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
Same thing is happening to me. I drive in Chicagoland traffic every day and that coupled with the fact that I'm getting older makes me think my next car will be an automatic. I used to love driving my manual, but this heavy traffic is ruining that for me.
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
Same thing is happening to me. I drive in Chicagoland traffic every day and that coupled with the fact that I'm getting older makes me think my next car will be an automatic. I used to love driving my manual, but this heavy traffic is ruining that for me.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
Same thing is happening to me. I drive in Chicagoland traffic every day and that coupled with the fact that I'm getting older makes me think my next car will be an automatic. I used to love driving my manual, but this heavy traffic is ruining that for me.
I commuted in Silicon Valley traffic for 30 years and always drove a manual. But, I also retired at 55. Now that I am 65, if I had to commute in SV traffic I would prolly get an automatic if I didn't shoot myself at the prospect of going back to work.
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
Same thing is happening to me. I drive in Chicagoland traffic every day and that coupled with the fact that I'm getting older makes me think my next car will be an automatic. I used to love driving my manual, but this heavy traffic is ruining that for me.
I commuted in Silicon Valley traffic for 30 years and always drove a manual. But, I also retired at 55. Now that I am 65, if I had to commute in SV traffic I would prolly get an automatic if I didn't shoot myself at the prospect of going back to work.
What percentage of people really drive in super heavy traffic all day? I sympathize with those folks, but not with the rest.
I have been in the middle of Manhattan, on an uphill section of road, in traffic so bad that it was taking 20-30 mins to traverse two blocks, with my left knee shaking and hurting and a whole trip back to Philadelphia ahead of me, and still not wished I had an automatic.
I have been in the middle of Manhattan, on an uphill section of road, in traffic so bad that it was taking 20-30 mins to traverse two blocks, with my left knee shaking and hurting and a whole trip back to Philadelphia ahead of me, and still not wished I had an automatic.
I own a pair of manual transmission cars. Subaru makes awful automatics IMHO and the manual tranny is much pleasant with our turbo Legacy and WRX.
Still I would never buy a truck with a manual, they just are not enjoyable to drive, at least the domestics in the last 30 years.
Still I would never buy a truck with a manual, they just are not enjoyable to drive, at least the domestics in the last 30 years.
Originally Posted By: rjundi
I own a pair of manual transmission cars. Subaru makes awful automatics IMHO and the manual tranny is much pleasant with our turbo Legacy and WRX.
Still I would never buy a truck with a manual, they just are not enjoyable to drive, at least the domestics in the last 30 years.
My '95 Ford Ranger has a very good manual and very easy to drive. My Mother says it is easier than most manual cars. Key thing is to change the master cylinder fluid every so often. I use Mobil 1 ATF in the 5-speed and it shifts smoothly.
Not sure about current GM and Dodge trucks, but they used to use the New Process Gear 5-speed in the 90s, as did Toyota and it was like a car.
I own a pair of manual transmission cars. Subaru makes awful automatics IMHO and the manual tranny is much pleasant with our turbo Legacy and WRX.
Still I would never buy a truck with a manual, they just are not enjoyable to drive, at least the domestics in the last 30 years.
My '95 Ford Ranger has a very good manual and very easy to drive. My Mother says it is easier than most manual cars. Key thing is to change the master cylinder fluid every so often. I use Mobil 1 ATF in the 5-speed and it shifts smoothly.
Not sure about current GM and Dodge trucks, but they used to use the New Process Gear 5-speed in the 90s, as did Toyota and it was like a car.
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Originally Posted By: ffracer
NZ is different as they absorb a lot of used Japan market RHD cars for cheap (won't pass the tough Japan inspection) so there are a lot of automatics, but imported new cars are often manual.
Autos were viewed with suspicion here for a very long time - they were only seen in top of the line imported cars,95% of anything new sold here was manual.But in the early '90's when we started importing used Japanese imports in huge quantities (so many that our CKD factories closed) autos became much more common.They are favoured in cities,but here in rural NZ the manual is preferred.
NZ is different as they absorb a lot of used Japan market RHD cars for cheap (won't pass the tough Japan inspection) so there are a lot of automatics, but imported new cars are often manual.
Autos were viewed with suspicion here for a very long time - they were only seen in top of the line imported cars,95% of anything new sold here was manual.But in the early '90's when we started importing used Japanese imports in huge quantities (so many that our CKD factories closed) autos became much more common.They are favoured in cities,but here in rural NZ the manual is preferred.
+1 on the 95 Ranger w/5 speed. I really enjoyed driving that vehicle.
An article a year ago or so said that Europe was 13% Automatic and the USA was 13% manual.
It amazes me that someone sells a car (Acura?) that has the same price with Auto or Manual! Most cars are about 800 - 1000 more with autos.
An article a year ago or so said that Europe was 13% Automatic and the USA was 13% manual.
It amazes me that someone sells a car (Acura?) that has the same price with Auto or Manual! Most cars are about 800 - 1000 more with autos.
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
In real stop-and-go traffic, I'd rather creep along in a low gear, occasionally pushing in the clutch, than be constantly moving my right foot from accelerator to brake pedal and back again, over and over and over.
And when the traffic is moving, I'd rather make tiny speed adjustments with the accelerator pedal than with the brake pedal. Maybe that's why my rear brake pads lasted 94k miles and my front ones 150k+ miles, almost all of those miles on SoCal streets and highways.
IMO there are no road conditions where an AT is superior to a good MT.
Most of you obviously have never driven in Calif traffic. I know quite a few people who used to drive manuals (including me) and 100% of them said they would never get a manual again after suffering from hours of heavy traffic each day. These people are enthusiasts too.. we're not talking about soccer moms.
Our traffic will beat any auto enthusiast into submission eventually.
In real stop-and-go traffic, I'd rather creep along in a low gear, occasionally pushing in the clutch, than be constantly moving my right foot from accelerator to brake pedal and back again, over and over and over.
And when the traffic is moving, I'd rather make tiny speed adjustments with the accelerator pedal than with the brake pedal. Maybe that's why my rear brake pads lasted 94k miles and my front ones 150k+ miles, almost all of those miles on SoCal streets and highways.
IMO there are no road conditions where an AT is superior to a good MT.
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