Observed EV tax credit market distortion

[alarmguy]

This isn't the flex that ICE advocates think it is. Power plants burn fossil fuels at a far higher thermal efficiency than your neighbor's F250. Most use co-generation to make waste heat useful. That could never be duplicated on a moving vehicle, it's just too big and too heavy. The closest thing to that is hybridization, but even that doesn't get close to what power plants can do.

At the end of the day there is less carbon from the grid operating an EV than an ICE vehicle, the research is out there if you care to look.
...

Thats just it, why would I care to look at a one sided argument void of factual data?
I dont care one hoot about carbon emissions, I could care less about global warming. The earth will always do just fine and the fools who believe turning over their paychecks to support an agenda are under the "control" of those they give it too.
(look up the Rev Jim Jones Just having fun with that one but its about control)

Ok, so look this up (not directed at you) Where are you going to come up with power to charge 300,000,000 cars when the grid at times struggles to charge less than 5 million. Lets face it, the mass population cannot critically think past anything their smart phone tells them with the latest 24 hour propaganda on it delivered by pop tarts still living with their parents.

Meanwhile Communist China continue to conquer the rest of the foolish world. Who by the way brings online 2 new coal powered plants a week and 22 nuclear plants under construction AND another 70 nuclear plants planned, not only that but they lead the world in renewable energy spending.

USA nuclear power plants under construction? NONE and current licenses to operate old plants, of them 30 are due to expire in 2030

BTW, CA with 14+ MILLION CARS has one old nuclear plant and due to be decommissioned. It was supposed to be shut down already but then the brain dead didnt know where the power would come from to replace it, so they got an extension, LAST minute from the Feds.
Burn baby burn I guess is their Moto or they figured a way to make sunlight at night and cloudy days.

 

[demarpaint]

Ok, so look this up (not directed at you) Where are you going to come up with power to charge 300,000,000 cars when the grid at times struggles to charge less than 5 million. Lets face it, the mass population cannot critically think past anything their smart phone tells them with the latest 24 hour propaganda on it delivered by pop tarts still living with their parents.

I get a good laugh out of that too. Like I said before this pipe dream Electrify America grid might be ready by 2075, maybe. They still have trouble keeping air conditioners running at times.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I laugh when I read about EV owner's pushing back on the oil subsidies, existing, or no longer existing. Meanwhile most if not all of them have ICE powered vehicle/vehicles parked in their garage or driveway along with their EV. There are many reasons, including range anxiety, a tow vehicle, etc. So that $7,500 tax credit is a little one sided some could say. Oh and to those who only own an EV now, they had gas or diesel powered vehicles in the past, so they benefited one time or another. IMO the tax credit is a big waste of taxpayer $$, used to push a narrative/political agenda, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather see that money go to our veterans and tightening up the border.

My point is not pushing back on anything; rather it is to show the purpose of subsidies.
The purpose of subsidies is to support what are considered to be key parts of the economy or national infrastructure.

Taking a given subsidy in a vacuum is what is laughable.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Everything is subsidized and it's stupid. It's just laundering money. I'm not saying this in support of the credit. Very much the opposite, I think there should be no subsidies on any of these items. All it does is shift costs and actually cost money to implement these subsidies.

Sure the EV tax credit is only applicable if you have enough tax burden to get the credit, but that's just changing the language of the subsidy. Everyone's fuel is subsidized no matter your income level though.

Disagree. Subsidies have a purpose. See post 83.

How much would gas cost if we did not patrol the Strait of Hormuz? Heating our homes, etc?
The Strait of Hormuz is a strait between the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. It provides the only sea passage from the Persian Gulf to the open ocean and is one of the world's most strategically important choke points.

 

[demarpaint]

My point is not pushing back on anything; rather it is to show the purpose of subsidies.
The purpose of subsidies is to support what are considered to be key parts of the economy or national infrastructure.

Taking a given subsidy in a vacuum is what is laughable.

You're entitled to your opinion, and to laugh at whatever you want. I simply stated my reality based opinion, and what I laugh at. When EV owners complain about oil subsidies many fail to realize they benefited from them if they ever owned or drove and fueled an ICE vehicle. Many of them still own an ICE vehicle because they realize they can't go all in on an EV at the moment. Oh and as my buddy @alarmguy asked about 2024 oil subsidy proof, no one has posted an answer. That could mean they're gone, I wasn't able to answer him either.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I agree with everything else you said completely, but I am still waiting for someone to show me a oil subsidy in 2024 in the USA?

Everyone likes to point to aircraft carriers steaming around in the Gulf, but there was none there for like 2 years up to the current war, which has zero to do with our need for oil - we make our own now.

I could also argue pretty well that your EV electricity is highly subsidized directly by the oil burners, because natural gas is the largest producer of electricity, and is only so cheap because its a byproduct of oil production. No oil production, no nat gas.

Oil is sold on the world market. It is far more complex then we make our own now.

 

[JeffKeryk]

You're entitled to your opinion, and to laugh at whatever you want. I simply stated my reality based opinion, and what I laugh at. When EV owners complain about oil subsidies many fail to realize they benefited from them if they ever owned or drove and fueled an ICE vehicle. Many of them still own an ICE vehicle because they realize they can't go all in on an EV at the moment. Oh and as my buddy @alarmguy asked about 2024 oil subsidy proof, no one has posted an answer. That could mean they're gone, I wasn't able to answer him either.

What EV owners are complaining about oil subsidies? I am not; in fact I am making the opposite argument. Singling out an individual subsidy is opinion and perhaps shows a poor understanding of subsidies. It's just opinion.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Oil is sold on the world market. It is far more complex then we make our own now.

Its actually not. That is why there are so many prices. You have been lead to believe that oil is an interchangeable commodity by TPTB to spin a narrative. Its not. Refined product is, but crude is not really.

And its not just ship and delivery points. Its not interchangeable. Refineries are set up for a certain range. To revamp a refinery to use something different can take months or more.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Yes, and the United States is the world’s largest producer and Canada and Mexico are net exporters?

So where is the subsidy as suggested? Your own wiki link shows no US subsidies of oil?

Perhaps reread the article?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Here is another fun chart. Crude prices follow interest rates. What do interest rates follow - economic activity. So crude prices follow economic activity - supply and demand. Not hard to follow.

 

[demarpaint]

What EV owners are complaining about oil subsidies? I am not; in fact I am making the opposite argument. Singling out an individual subsidy is opinion and perhaps shows a poor understanding of subsidies. It's just opinion.

Read the threads, many feel EV owners short changed. I didn't single you out, you quoted me I replied. They also forget their EV has a lot of components made from petroleum products, and drive on asphalt. So the subsidies benefit them, directly in fact.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Read the threads, many feel EV owners short changed. I didn't single you out, you quoted me I replied. They also forget their EV has a lot of components made from petroleum products, and drive on asphalt. So the subsidies benefit them, directly in fact.

Perhaps you are right.
Do you think non-EV owners feel short changed?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Perhaps reread the article?
View attachment 236359

What does something that happened before I was born in many cases have to do with a tax credit in 2024?

In 2024 there is a US tax credit on EV's and there is no USA tax credit or subsidy on oil. If I am wrong on that fact - feel free to correct me? To date on this board no one has been able.

 

[demarpaint]

Perhaps you are right.
Do you think non-EV owners feel short changed?

People all over feel short changed I think, wait until Nov it could get a lot worse.

 

[SC Maintenance]

What EV owners are complaining about oil subsidies? I am not; in fact I am making the opposite argument. Singling out an individual subsidy is opinion and perhaps shows a poor understanding of subsidies. It's just opinion.

This part of the conversation started exactly with this post:

The way I see it, oil in the United States is subsidized through the tax code, no reason EV’s shouldn’t be also. It just comes down to your needs/wants - no more, no less. Think of it as FWD vs AWD, different needs for different people.

The US subsidizes lots of things. EV's, the US domestic auto industry in general (GM bailout et al), higher ed, health care, etc etc.

Positive or negative view on the subsidy depends on one's particular benefit of it (human nature).

In 2024 there is no US subsidy on oil, but there is on EV's.

Thats sort of the point of this thread. If we want to argue about 1975 that would be an interesting thread also.

 

[JeffKeryk]

This part of the conversation started exactly with this post:


The US subsidizes lots of things. EV's, the US domestic auto industry in general (GM bailout et al), higher ed, health care, etc etc.

Positive or negative view on the subsidy depends on one's particular benefit of it (human nature).

In 2024 there is no US subsidy on oil, but there is on EV's.

Thats sort of the point of this thread. If we want to argue about 1975 that would be an interesting thread also.

I did not read the original post as complaining, just a point of view.

I am not sure why you feel there are no current oil subsidies. Perhaps Google it for yourself.
Subsidies

 

[SC Maintenance]

I did not read the original post as complaining, just a point of view.

I am not sure why you feel there are no current oil subsidies. Perhaps Google it for yourself.
Subsidies

I think we have discussed this one before? Maybe it was someone else.

I suggest actually looking at the actual laws they wish to change, not the website of a biased "environmental group" https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/131/General-Explanations-FY2024.pdf

Most of their '13 fossil fuel tax preferences and credits" have to do with coal.

Some of the oil "preferences" they want to get rid of:

One they want to End.. "credit for eligible costs attributable to enhanced oil recovery (EOR) projects. Eligible costs include the cost of constructing a gas treatment plant ..... " -- this would be akin to telling elon he can no longer write off any R&D expense associated robo taxis, for example.

There is a oil spill trust fund. Whenever oil is imported, the importer pays a tax on it to the trust fund (to cover spills). There is a bit of a refund if you don't spill. They want to keep the tax, get rid of the refund. Its not really a credit. We do want them to not spill, right?

There are a bunch of other stupidity. They want to end "Use of percentage depletion with respect to oil and natural gas wells". This is basic depreciation like any other asset. If I am a newspaper I depreciate my printing press. If I am an oil producer I depreciate my well. How novel?

My favorite - get rid of "Credit for oil and natural gas produced from marginal wells". Good, lets do it. I suggest we flare the gas and let electricity prices double instead. .

These are all normal business expenses any company can write off against expenses, with the exceptions of special "credits" they get to take against special taxes only the oil industry has - like the oil spill "credit"

its gas-lighting on the part of the authors. They can't even put a number on it.

These are all normal deductions like any business gets - deduct legitimate costs from profit for tax purposes

 

[zyxelenator]

Just another general motors screw up. They are like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football away from Lucy. They just love to torture themselves.
I haven’t heard or read a bad thing about the GM Bolt. So what did they do? They cancel production to go after high margin cars only to change their mind and come out with a new Bolt model after the public and investor out.

In the meantime, they lost over a year of sales. The EUV is a model that we were interested in along with the gasoline trailblazer

Not only that the high margin cars and high price tags of all EV models are struggling. General Motors could’ve been cranking these out of the factory and selling them all.

People loved Volts also. And they canceled it and nothing came instead in a Phev form. They could have based a big 3 row SUV on that system(obliviously with engine that has more ponies than 1.4L 4 banger, and bigger generator), and that would have sell like hot cakes. Who would not like a Suburban that uses significantly less gas and is not dependent on chargers, if they are not around? Half of TX soccer moms would drive those

 

[Torrid]

Disagree. Subsidies have a purpose. See post 83.

How much would gas cost if we did not patrol the Strait of Hormuz? Heating our homes, etc?
The Strait of Hormuz is a strait between the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. It provides the only sea passage from the Persian Gulf to the open ocean and is one of the world's most strategically important choke points.

I was trying to come from a place of if we're going to pick and choose to just throw them all out instead, but it seems the EV credit in particular has a lot of panties in a bunch, especially since because I've previously owned or still own ICE vehicles(we all have) that there should not be an EV tax credit because I've already benefited from subsidies that have lowered gasoline costs. I'm not sure how that computes to a vehicle that uses a different and much wider possible

Would I prefer a cleaner, more succinct approach to the system that didn't have to move money around to artificially lower costs in some cases? Sure, I think most of us would prefer more truth in cost. The "I don't like this, don't subsidize this, but subsidize that" approach is the definition of picking winners and losers as many say. While I see the EV credit as being a hint artificial it isn't free money as you said because of how it's implemented.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I was trying to come from a place of if we're going to pick and choose to just throw them all out instead, but it seems the EV credit in particular has a lot of panties in a bunch, especially since because I've previously owned or still own ICE vehicles(we all have) that there should not be an EV tax credit because I've already benefited from subsidies that have lowered gasoline costs. I'm not sure how that computes to a vehicle that uses a different and much wider possible

Would I prefer a cleaner, more succinct approach to the system that didn't have to move money around to artificially lower costs in some cases? Sure, I think most of us would prefer more truth in cost. The "I don't like this, don't subsidize this, but subsidize that" approach is the definition of picking winners and losers as many say. While I see the EV credit as being a hint artificial it isn't free money as you said because of how it's implemented.

Sure, I certainly see that point. Government "invests" in projects that private business otherwise would not. I support that. Many go nowhere. Some change the world, or protect us. There are no easy answers.

I freely admit I got a tax credit with our 1st EV and it was absolutely part of the decision to buy. That's the incentive.
The new car is a different story. I support income income limits.