Observed EV tax credit market distortion

[Brons2]

The freedom isn't the price of the fuel, it's the absolutely limitless access due to availability. And most places don't have 330 sunny days. And do they have enough roof acreage to power a home fully plus charge cars, because if we all have to go electric there will be multiple cars to charge.

Where is it that you can't go with an EV? Truly, truly remote places no, but I've put about just about anywhere across the country that I might want to go to into the A Better Router Planner App. I can go pretty much anywhere that's of interest to me. Being AWD and standard battery it only has 233 miles of range at full charge.

The advantage of more range is less stops, but that's not a deterrent to me, there's only so long I can stand to be in the car. As I've mentioned many times, my arse doesn't have 400 miles of range.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Where is it that you can't go with an EV? Truly, truly remote places no, but I've put about just about anywhere across the country that I might want to go to into the A Better Router Planner App. I can go pretty much anywhere that's of interest to me. Being AWD and standard battery it only has 233 miles of range at full charge.

The advantage of more range is less stops, but that's not a deterrent to me, there's only so long I can stand to be in the car. As I've mentioned many times, my arse doesn't have 400 miles of range.

IMO, people have ideas of what EV ownership is like. Of course ICE is the long time standard. Human nature is to be adverse to change. EVs are not for every use case. But real experience teaches us ownership is different from "I think". I have learned a lot.

 

[SC Maintenance]

This isn't the flex that ICE advocates think it is. Power plants burn fossil fuels at a far higher thermal efficiency than your neighbor's F250. Most use co-generation to make waste heat useful. That could never be duplicated on a moving vehicle, it's just too big and too heavy. The closest thing to that is hybridization, but even that doesn't get close to what power plants can do.

At the end of the day there is less carbon from the grid operating an EV than an ICE vehicle, the research is out there if you care to look.

But really, I don't care about the carbon arguments that much anyway. I just like the way they drive. And resale value in the tank? Well that's great for me because I'm looking to replace my other ICE vehicle.

The research is missing the entire supply chain in the analysis - like the part where the minerals are dug out of a strip mine and processed using a coal fired plant. You simply can't get that information because its held by the CCP, if even they know.

The US grid swing producer is still all coal - still 16% according to the eia.

The fact that you choose to compare a tiny EV car to a F250 shows your not interested in a meaningful discussion.

 

[OVERKILL]

The research is missing the entire supply chain in the analysis - like the part where the minerals are dug out of a strip mine and processed using a coal fired plant. You simply can't get that information because its held by the CCP, if even they know.

The US grid swing producer is still all coal - still 16% according to the eia.

The fact that you choose to compare a tiny EV car to a F250 shows your not interested in a meaningful discussion.

I've posted some information from Seaver Wang in the past on that supply chain and the "mine to mouth" coal that powers the solar panel factories.

While @Brons2 is correct that a CCGT is more efficient than your typical ICE engine, coal plants aren't, particularly when operating in non-baseload, and same for OCGT.

gCO2 per L:
Gasoline: 2,307
Diesel: 2,681
Petroleum coke: 3,877

 

[CapitalTruck]

The way I see it, oil in the United States is subsidized through the tax code, no reason EV’s shouldn’t be also. It just comes down to your needs/wants - no more, no less. Think of it as FWD vs AWD, different needs for different people.

 

[SC Maintenance]

The way I see it, oil in the United States is subsidized through the tax code, no reason EV’s shouldn’t be also. It just comes down to your needs/wants - no more, no less. Think of it as FWD vs AWD, different needs for different people.

Can you explain to me how oil is subsidized?

 

[JeffKeryk]

Can you explain to me how oil is subsidized?

Fossil Fuel Subsidies

History teaches us following WW II, oil became more and more important to America and the world. Oil heating boilers replaced coal burners, Diesel locomotives emerged, we rode busses and bought gasoline powered cars. Cars became the major mode of transportation.
Oil imports increased and we were drawn into the Middle East to maintain supply via military action and patrolling the Persian Gulf.
The United States Strategic Petroleum Reserve was created in 1975.

The world runs on oil.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Fossil Fuel Subsidies

History teaches us following WW II, oil became more and more important to America and the world. Oil heating boilers replaced coal burners, Diesel locomotives emerged, we rode busses and bought gasoline powered cars. Cars became the major mode of transportation.
Oil imports increased and we were drawn into the Middle East to maintain supply via military action and patrolling the Persian Gulf.
The United States Strategic Petroleum Reserve was created in 1975.

The world runs on oil.

Yes, and the United States is the world’s largest producer and Canada and Mexico are net exporters?

So where is the subsidy as suggested? Your own wiki link shows no US subsidies of oil?

 

[demarpaint]

Yes, and the United States is the world’s largest producer and Canada and Mexico are net exporters?

So where is the subsidy as suggested? Your own wiki link shows no US subsidies of oil?

I laugh when I read about EV owner's pushing back on the oil subsidies, existing, or no longer existing. Meanwhile most if not all of them have ICE powered vehicle/vehicles parked in their garage or driveway along with their EV. There are many reasons, including range anxiety, a tow vehicle, etc. So that $7,500 tax credit is a little one sided some could say. Oh and to those who only own an EV now, they had gas or diesel powered vehicles in the past, so they benefited one time or another. IMO the tax credit is a big waste of taxpayer $$, used to push a narrative/political agenda, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather see that money go to our veterans and tightening up the border.

 

[alarmguy]

This isn't the flex that ICE advocates think it is. Power plants burn fossil fuels at a far higher thermal efficiency than your neighbor's F250. Most use co-generation to make waste heat useful. That could never be duplicated on a moving vehicle, it's just too big and too heavy. The closest thing to that is hybridization, but even that doesn't get close to what power plants can do.

At the end of the day there is less carbon from the grid operating an EV than an ICE vehicle, the research is out there if you care to look.

But really, I don't care about the carbon arguments that much anyway. I just like the way they drive. And resale value in the tank? Well that's great for me because I'm looking to replace my other ICE vehicle.

That is the key, you like the engine EV or gas
Everything else is … control

 

[alarmguy]

The Hertz cars that are eligible for the tax credit get snapped up pretty fast unless they're high mileage.

Oh have I noticed that!!!

 

[Torrid]

I laugh when I read about EV owner's pushing back on the oil subsidies, existing, or no longer existing. Meanwhile most if not all of them have ICE powered vehicle/vehicles parked in their garage or driveway along with their EV. There are many reasons, including range anxiety, a tow vehicle, etc. So that $7,500 tax credit is a little one sided some could say. IMO it's a big waste of taxpayer $$, used to push a narrative/political agenda, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather see that money go to our veterans and tightening up the border.

Everything is subsidized and it's stupid. It's just laundering money. I'm not saying this in support of the credit. Very much the opposite, I think there should be no subsidies on any of these items. All it does is shift costs and actually cost money to implement these subsidies.

Sure the EV tax credit is only applicable if you have enough tax burden to get the credit, but that's just changing the language of the subsidy. Everyone's fuel is subsidized no matter your income level though.

 

[demarpaint]

Everything is subsidized and it's stupid. It's just laundering money. I'm not saying this in support of the credit. Very much the opposite, I think there should be no subsidies on any of these items. All it does is shift costs and actually cost money to implement these subsidies.

Sure the EV tax credit is only applicable if you have enough tax burden to get the credit, but that's just changing the language of the subsidy. Everyone's fuel is subsidized no matter your income level though.

I agree. My only push back is the EV owners benefited from the fuel subsidy prior to owning their EV, so one could say everyone benefited or benefits from it, no matter what their income level.

 

[Torrid]

I agree. My only push back is the EV owners benefited from the fuel subsidy prior to owning their EV, so one could say everyone benefited or benefits from it, no matter what their income level.

Correct and you're still getting a fuel subsidy. I don't know what the EV having a one time credit matters in the grand scheme of things. I guess a calculation could be done to see who profits more from what.

You could profit from the EV subsidy from buying an EV.

 

[demarpaint]

Correct and you're still getting a fuel subsidy. I don't know what the EV having a one time credit matters in the grand scheme of things. I guess a calculation could be done to see who profits more from what.

You could profit from the EV subsidy from buying an EV.

You're getting that subsidy too I believe, and have been for many years, the same as everyone of us here. I'd love to see the EV tax credit go away, and be used to tighten up the border, and help our Vets. Me benefit from the EV credit? LOL that won't happen anytime soon, more than likely never. I might ultimately get forced into a Hybrid, but the jury is out on that. We should have a better picture early November.

 

[Torrid]

You're getting that subsidy too I believe, and have been for many years, the same as everyone of us here. I'd love to see the EV tax credit go away, and be used to tighten up the border, and help our Vets. Me benefit from the EV credit? LOL that won't happen anytime soon, more than likely never. I might ultimately get forced into a Hybrid, but the jury is out on that. We should have a better picture early November.

I'm sure getting rid of the fuel subsidy could help all the things you mention as well.

 

[demarpaint]

I'm sure getting rid of the fuel subsidy could help all the things you mention as well.

Yep, common sense tells that story. The only thing is it will hurt more Americans than taking away the EV tax credit.

 

[Torrid]

Yep, common sense tells that story. The only thing is it will hurt more Americans than taking away the EV tax credit.

Punishing the minority in order to maintain status quo seems to be the right move, right?

 

[demarpaint]

Punishing the minority in order to maintain status quo seems to be the right move, right?

I'm not punishing anyone, I just stated the obvious, more people would get hurt. Either way I don't make rules, I just follow them.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Everyone's fuel is subsidized no matter your income level though.

I agree with everything else you said completely, but I am still waiting for someone to show me a oil subsidy in 2024 in the USA?

Everyone likes to point to aircraft carriers steaming around in the Gulf, but there was none there for like 2 years up to the current war, which has zero to do with our need for oil - we make our own now.

I could also argue pretty well that your EV electricity is highly subsidized directly by the oil burners, because natural gas is the largest producer of electricity, and is only so cheap because its a byproduct of oil production. No oil production, no nat gas.