Not impressed with PureONE relief valve

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From the pictures of the leaf spring (the piece that is connected by a "rivet" to a metal disk, inside the inner tube) is deceiving.

The third pic from the left it looks like the leaf spring actual looks like it has some give but it does not. The Relief Valve P.S.I. for the PL14476 is 14-18. I don't see how this is possible when I can even force it open with my index finger pushing down on it.
 
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What if you push (with a small screwdriver as somebody else asked earlier) where the leaf "coils down" into the valve?
 
That was the first thing I tried. Used a small electronics flat head screw driver to pushed down on the outer edges of the metal disk but it would not budge. Eventually with some force I shoved the screw driver in to create a cap between the metal disk and filter housing. Thereby, opening the relief valve, finally. At this point I was thinking there is no way a psi of 14-18 would open this thing.

Then I was curious how much force I had to apply to actually open the valve. So I took the needle nose plyers and pushed down on the rivet in the center with the filter facing down:

filter-puro-cart-08-back.jpg


That is when I noticed I had permanently deformed the leaf spring just to create a tiny cap.

I then basically folded the leaf spring in half with a lot of force with the plyers because I wanted see if the leaf spring had any give. To find out that the the leaf spring is made from a very hard piece metal that has no play, no recoil at all.
 
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I don't think the rivet part is supposed to move..... I think it's the part BEHIND/BESIDE the rivet that moves......

I wish I still had the PureONE I took off my Townie from the winter, I'd check it.
 
really,why is the valve even in the filter ?
it dont do squat unless the filter plugs !
anybody on these forums aint never had a plugged filter cause they aint dumb enough to run dino oil and a filter for 40 k miles !
cold start bypass ?
i aint buying it !
 
You don't think the bypass valve will open in an oil filter when you start an engine at 0 degrees?
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Gary Alan installed a freakin PSID gauge in his minivan and the filter was in bypass even at temps of 20 degrees. And that was using a Pure One!

Cripes, the bypass valve on Puroalotors is not rocket science. There is a hole in the bottom baseplate. The hole is covered with a metal disk. The metal disk is held against the hole with that squiggly looking thingy - it's a spring. The spring is attached to the metal disk by a rivet.

That is the BYPASS VALVE. The leaf spring is the 4th object from the left in the first post - it provides spring pressure to hold the filter element tight against the top baseplate.
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
You don't think the bypass valve will open in an oil filter when you start an engine at 0 degrees?
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Gary Alan installed a freakin PSID gauge in his minivan and the filter was in bypass even at temps of 20 degrees. And that was using a Pure One!

Cripes, the bypass valve on Puroalotors is not rocket science. There is a hole in the center tube. The hole is covered with a metal disk. The metal disk is held against the hole with that squiggly looking thingy - it's a spring. The spring is attached to the metal disk by a rivet.

That is the BYPASS VALVE. The leaf spring is the 4th object from the left in the first post - it provides spring pressure to hold the filter element tight against the top baseplate.


Drew:

Would you mind detailing how Gary ran this test to confirm the filter was in fact in bypass mode?
 
He installed gauges before and after the oil filter - and was getting upwards of 17 psi differential on startup that would then settle to around 3 psid. I think we concluded that the psid dropped because the oil filter bypass and the oil pump bypass were both opening. This, on a Pure One with a 12 psid bypass valve. He hit 17 psid and the oil pressure would hit the pump relief limit immediately upon some cold starts - not even as cold as 0.
 
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The 17psi differential would definitely cause the bypass to open. But as soon as that differential disappears (which, from what you described, it's doing), the valve closes.

The bypass operation on the pump would affect the readings on BOTH sides of the filter.

It's not uncommon for a healthy engine to hit the pump relief on start-up. The relief on a 302 Ford is 60-65psi and on a cold start, mine is right there. BUT, the relief on the pump has no bearing on the filter being in bypass mode or not. Overall pressure is not the issue (as we've established), it is the presence of a pressure differential that causes the valve to open.

Gary's methodology appears sound.
 
Actually Gary pretty much proved that the oil pump being in bypass affected the differential pressure across the filter. As soon as oil pressure hit the pump relief limit on cold start, the psid would drop within 30 seconds to 3 psid - where it stayed at all times after cold start.

So yea, psid through the filter makes the bypass open - but the oil pump bypass affects that. Less oil flow - less or limited total system pressure and therefor less psid through the filter.
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Actually Gary pretty much proved that the oil pump being in bypass affected the differential pressure across the filter. As soon as oil pressure hit the pump relief limit on cold start, the psid would drop within 30 seconds to 3 psid - where it stayed at all times after cold start.

So yea, psid through the filter makes the bypass open - but the oil pump bypass affects that. Less oil flow - less or limited total system pressure and therefor less psid through the filter.



Yes, but as soon as the oil flow lessens from the bypass on the pump opening, the reason the differential drops down is because the filter is then able to keep up with flow through the media and so the bypass in the FILTER closes.

What I'm saying is this:

Just because the bypass on the pump is open does not mean the oil is being filtered or not being filtered. The bypass on the pump is based on an absolute back-pressure value, not a pressure differential.

And just because the bypass on the FILTER is open does not mean the bypass on the pump is open or closed. The bypass on the FILTER is based on a pressure differential and NOT an absolute pressure value.

We are dealing with a pressure-drop across a restriction. In this case, it is the filter media. The media is only able to flow so much oil. The viscosity of that oil has a direct bearing on how many GPH that flow is.

SO, in a scenario with a cold ambient temperature and thick oil, the media is going to be a pretty big restriction and the filter will VERY likely go into bypass mode.

In contrast, on a 100 degree day in Texas with 0w20 in the pan, it's no where NEAR as likely to bypass on startup because of how thin the 20-weight is at 100 degrees.

And pressure here is a 3rd value.

Say we have two engines.

#1 is a freshly rebuilt SBC with tight bearing clearances and a stock-volume oil pump, which, for the sake of argument, blows off at 70psi.

#2 is a 20 year old SBC that has had the living [censored] beat out of it but has, for the sake of argument, a brand-new stock-volume oil pump in it that blows off at 70psi.


Engine #1 on a cold start with 5w30 in the pan will put the oil pressure gauge at 60psi.

Engine #2 on a cold start will muster up 20psi on the same gauge.

Which engine will be moving more oil VOLUME through the bearings?

Engine #2. Which shows less oil PRESSURE, because the pressure is simply a reference as to how much back-pressure the bearings provide. The looser engine has greater clearances and so more oil VOLUME can be pushed through the bearings at less pressure.

Engine #2 is actually more likely to put the filter into bypass mode than Engine #1 because the tighter tolerances on Engine #1 impede oil VOLUME, and less volume across the filter media means there is less likelihood of a pressure differential occurring and the filter going into bypass.

So the actual pressure of the SYSTEM is not really relevant, we are interested in the differential, which is more dependant upon oil VOLUME causing a pressure-drop across the media than it is overall system pressure, which is simply a point used to reference the differential FROM as Gary has done.
 
Disclaimer: Note the time. I really shouldn't do this when I'm tired. It's hard enough communicating my chaotic conceptual views when I'm (for me) coherent - proceed at your own risk
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Okay, Puro uses a slightly higher bypass setting then Wix in most of their filters. We used to have published settings for the older SD Amsoil filters ..but they don't appear to give this out for the EaO's.

Here's how it goes- [side note]basically - YMMV and there are always exceptions - this has been a long term "open book" (shared) self education that has had many concepts altered and/or expanded in the discovery. As Drew pointed out, I went to great lengths to get as much "real" data as I could within my operational universe. This applies to most conventional oil system configurations for most encountered conditions - aka: the life most of us know

All comments/observations/theories/beliefs/assumptions are based on minimal or no effects due to media loading. Effects of loading will alter and/or exaggerate differentials, but will not alter the basic concept attempting to be communicated.[/side note]

Okay, the bypass valve works in conjunction with the oil pump relief valve..but not exclusively.

The bypass valve protects your engine from oil starvation (thanks Pete C.)
IN GENERAL, the bypass valve setting protects the media from too much stress. While some design higher bypass settings for full filtering under broader conditions, the media must be reinforced to endure that added stress (VW/AUDI/Porsche to name a few).

If your oil pump is in relief, you have an elevated differential across your filter media. This can reach the bypass valve setting if the relief volume vs. the total volume produces low enough engine side "back pressure". Keep in mind that pressure will be a product of a given volume of oil moving at a given velocity ..at a given viscosity. Your pump will (typically) attenuate at a given peak pressure ..and your engine will develop back pressure only according to the volume that it can pass. This will be lower than the pump's peak pressure.

If your downstream oil passages are empty and/or of long length, you can experience higher PSID until the oil galleries are fully enveloped (so much pressure on one side ..no "back pressure" on the other). Here is one instance where the media can appear restrictive. AT THIS POINT ..there is no loss of flow. A "better flowing filter" and a "more restrictive filter" have absolutely NO effect on what the engine is seeing for oil. Your oil pump is NOT in relief ..therefore all sensible volume is being pumped to the engine. Same volume ..same rate of flow.

IF the visc is high enough and the "time to full envelopment" is long enough, then you can get a brief bout of enough PSID to reach the bypass threshold. Once the engine is fully enveloped AND the pump is NOT in relief, you've got a series circuit and the filter retreats to a subordinate division of its respective resistance "in line" ..which is very slight. Think of a 6 foot 100 feet long with a 1 foot choke at mid span. As you fill one end of the pipe with water, with a high volume flow ..the differential at the choke point will be substantial. When the other end of the pipe is filled (assume dead head), that differential will disappear). Now put another 1 INCH outlet on the end of the now fully enveloped 6 FOOT pipe ..and you see that the 1 foot choke has virtually no meaning in terms of "restriction". It's only in the transitional state from not being enveloped to being fully enveloped where it shows itself.

Now IF the oil pump goes into relief, then we don't have a series circuit. We have two flows. One traveling to the engine, and one being shunted or recirculated to the sump or the suction side of the pump. This will occur when your pump output in "volume at viscosity" exceeds your peak pressure limits.

Let me attempt to illustrate:

1gpm of flow @ 100psi

Maximum pressure: 100psi at the pump
Filter limit: 15PSID
Minium pressure below the filter: 85psi

So the flow that would have produced 100 psi at the engine is only producing 85psi. Doesn't it reason that 85% of the sensible flow is going to the engine (the true physics of this may be slightly different - but it works for our purposes)??

The filter (above and below) allows us to view the flow divergence in resultant pressures.

Now as the relief valve on the pump closes (oil gets more fluid - overcomes being at rest ..or moving a static column of oil to a dynamic column of oil) these two flows converge and come to unity. As they come to unity, the differential across the media will dissipate to express the velocity changes. Think river rapids or flood planes in their transitions from one to the other. Same gpm ..different velocity.

How this would look to you if you had two separate gauges above and blow the filter:

Let's say it's 10F and you've got 15w40 in your engine. Your engine has an 80psi limit on the oil pump. Let's assume for the moment that your engine caches a good amount of oil and that your oil filer tends to remain full. This will allow us to have no delay in seeing pressure(s) developed.

You start the engine and both needles go screaming up toward 80psi ...when you reach a certain pressure ..let's say 60 ..the downstream (engine side) slows a bit ..while the engine side continues straight on up toward 80psi ..sorta dragging the lower needle with it. This will be the differential that the bypass valve on the filter allows. The span of the differential will begin to compress as the oil pump relief valve closes.

Q: But what's happening when I start and my needle sits there for a few seconds.

Your pump may be "spinning its tires" to get traction while trying to push (and pull) a very thick and cold static column of oil. Think of a steam locomotive or a car doing a burn out. They're both spinning their wheels until the push applied can physically move the mass from a standstill to a true traction state. Sorta like a boat going from a standstill until planing off (but more solid after hook up). Oil doesn't accelerate on a dime ..especially when very cold. It also may not accelerate as fast as your engine can on the way up to 7000-9000 rpm.

Now there are PSID spec's for filters. Something (for example) 10PSID @ 10gpm with a 15CST fluid. This you can use for comparisons ..but most engine will have a hard time processing 5 gpm without being at a higher rpm state and near or at a peak pressure ...so it kinda throws the whole 10PSID thing out the window unless you fall into very narrow confines.

How about those who report less "noise" with a Wix vs. a PureOne vs a this or that? Don't get me wrong, not all filters are created equal in terms of "resistance". If you've got a leaking oil pump (either by design or wear) ..then you're sorta in a state of pump relief perpetually. While no oil pump is prefect ..they're good enough for us to regard them as such. So ..if you get noise (lingering for a while - not start up rattle) think of the vast number of units that don't regardless of which filter is used.
21.gif


There you have it! Clear as mud!
 
Gary:

The ONLY point I don't agree with you on is this one:

Quote:
If your oil pump is in relief, you have an elevated differential across your filter media.


Because this is not the case IF the media is able to sustain the volume of the oil being pushed through it and you are reaching the relief point on the pump because of back-pressure from the ENGINE, not the FILTER.

This is why I defined them as being mutually exclusive in my post.
 
I think you're missing something here. You can't have the same pressure on either side of the media if the pump is in relief.


Your back pressure is a product of the flow to the engine.

The applied pressure is that supplied by the pump.

The flow from the pump is independent of the flow to the engine.

You've got to swap some physics around once you now longer have an integrated series circuit like you had with the relief valve closed.

With the relief valve closed you have one unified/integrated flow. It doesn't matter if it's being pumped throw the eye of a needle or a 10' aqueduct ..if it's flowing at 1/2/3/4/5 gpm ...it's flowing at 1/2/3/4/5 gpm.

You're in a kinetic game of croquette with a fully enveloped engine below the relief limit. The oil merely speeds up or slows down with whatever it encounters.

The PSID is "expressed" across the media. Let us, for the moment ..have the exact same system without a filter at all. Does that satisfy your "free flowing" filter format? Okay, now we'll see pump pressure at the relief limit ...the flow will still be diverted ..but we'll still have reduced flow to the engine since it can't pass 100% of the pump output.

Since there's no differential there ..are we seeing 100% flow to the engine?

The media can be condensed to a single orifice or hole of some size. Once you view it as that, then this will make a bit more sense to you. If you merely viewed it as a choke, then you can more easily see why you can have a pressure differential across it when you don't have a series circuit. You'll have a differential anyway, but it's a whole lot different when it's a small added resistance to a series circuit of high impedance ..as opposed to merely a choke to flow.
 
So, what is the consensus on the PureOne PSID relief valve? Is it effective or not? Although I'm not impressed with the sidewall thickness, it has worked well for me in a couple of my vehicles. There is no unusual start-up noise, and UOA insolubles are always 0.2-0.3%.

It's not that I don't appreciate the oil pressure dynamic physics lesson, I just have ADD and I'm ready for the bottom line on this filter.

Terry Dyson is of the opinion that it cycles into relief mode too often, but I'm just not sold on that theory yet.

Thanks for all your valuable contributions Gary.
 
INDY, in my opinion, I do not think incidence of bypass operation occurs often enough to worry about unless you've got an unusual situation.
 
OVERKILL - let me try it this way so that it may make more sense here. I don't always communicate well (all qualifications and disclaimers still in effect).

Quote:
Yes, but as soon as the oil flow lessens from the bypass on the pump opening, the reason the differential drops down is because the filter is then able to keep up with flow through the media and so the bypass in the FILTER closes.


The differential on the media increases in relief due to max applied pressure above the filter, and reduced flow (and resulting back pressure) below it. Pump output is in excess of the engine's capability of processing below the pressure limit. It processes what it can process.

Quote:
And just because the bypass on the FILTER is open does not mean the bypass on the pump is open or closed.
Ah ..but the relief valve at the pump determines how much differential appears across the media (assume clean)

Quote:
The bypass on the FILTER is based on a pressure differential and NOT an absolute pressure value.


Absolutely ..and the divergence of flow between the engine and the relief produces that differential.

Otherwise the the filter's bypass can only be opened due to extreme flow (which would most likely also breach the pump relief setting) and/or loading (which would typically mean that any PSID readings would be greater and be of longer duration.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I think you're missing something here. You can't have the same pressure on either side of the media if the pump is in relief.


Your back pressure is a product of the flow to the engine.

The applied pressure is that supplied by the pump.

The flow from the pump is independent of the flow to the engine.

You've got to swap some physics around once you now longer have an integrated series circuit like you had with the relief valve closed.

With the relief valve closed you have one unified/integrated flow. It doesn't matter if it's being pumped throw the eye of a needle or a 10' aqueduct ..if it's flowing at 1/2/3/4/5 gpm ...it's flowing at 1/2/3/4/5 gpm.

You're in a kinetic game of croquette with a fully enveloped engine below the relief limit. The oil merely speeds up or slows down with whatever it encounters.

The PSID is "expressed" across the media. Let us, for the moment ..have the exact same system without a filter at all. Does that satisfy your "free flowing" filter format? Okay, now we'll see pump pressure at the relief limit ...the flow will still be diverted ..but we'll still have reduced flow to the engine since it can't pass 100% of the pump output.

Since there's no differential there ..are we seeing 100% flow to the engine?

The media can be condensed to a single orifice or hole of some size. Once you view it as that, then this will make a bit more sense to you. If you merely viewed it as a choke, then you can more easily see why you can have a pressure differential across it when you don't have a series circuit. You'll have a differential anyway, but it's a whole lot different when it's a small added resistance to a series circuit of high impedance ..as opposed to merely a choke to flow.





Gary:

When the pump is in relief, it's still pumping oil. If the back-pressure is from the bearings and NOT from the filter (assuming the filter is immediately after the pump) then it is VERY possible for the relief on the pump to be open and still having a constant pressure on both sides of the filter media.

Under circumstances where the media does not impede flow, it is transparent to the pump/bearing/back-pressure/relief relationship. When the MEDIA becomes the restriction, and with the filter in bypass, STILL cannot move enough oil and then the PUMP goes into bypass, THEN we have a scenario such as I think you are depicting. But as I said in my first paragraph, it is VERY possible for the pump to be in relief and the filter still be transparent to the oiling system and subsequently NOT in bypass.

And just so I am making sure you and I are on the same page here:

You are describing the filter as a substantial restriction in oil flow. This is not always the case. On an engine with extremely tight tolerances, it can be VERY easy for the pump to go into bypass due to back-pressure from the bearings.

Example scenario:

We have a pump that, at 3,000RPM (engine) moves 7Gph at 60psi, which is the bypass pressure on the pump. Now, the bearing clearances are extremely tight on the engine in question and the pump will peg at bypass at 60psi at 3,000RPM, since it cannot force any more oil volume through the bearings at that pressure.

Now we put a filter on it that can flow 13Gph.

Now, there is now way the filter is going to be in bypass in this scenario, because the media can keep up with the flow from the pump. So whether the pump is in bypass or not, as long as the filter is not a restriction, plays no roll in this scenario.

Hopefully I've made it more clear as to what I'm trying to describe.
 
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