North America vs. Anywhere Else Viscosities

[mechtech2]

OK, we are all aware of differences for oil recommendations from the USA/Canada to the rest of the world.
The trend is that USA gets the thinner stuff.
I believe the engines are the same, with minor intake and tuning differences.
Drive styles? We drive fast around here.
Forget about everyone else driving at Autobahn speeds.

So why?
First, we should not assume that the 'Euro' recommendations are superior. The fact is that the USA recommendations are just as likely to be better.

Availability has to be a huge issue in other parts of the world.
5-20 is tough to find elsewhere - the network is not up to speed in all parts of the Globe.
And some sort of momentum of people's old thinking has to be overcome.

These left handed reasons are what I think are the main reasons for thicker oils recommended elsewhere.

 

[Johnny]

I agree with you on this but we are out numbered about this opinion. I'm sure it won't be long and we will need our armor plating.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Drive styles? We drive fast around here.

I beg to differ. Most North Americans I speak with seem to think their cars will instantly explode if they exceed 4k RPM, or they'll go to jail instantly if they exceed 65 mph. Europeans drive the wheels off their cars by comparison.

Plus, engines tend to be significantly smaller in Europe for a variety of reasons, which means they have to be worked harder to get the same job done.


Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Forget about everyone else driving at Autobahn speeds.

Why? That's a significant consideration to stay the least.

German engineers actually have a word (vollgasfest) specifically to describe the durability of an engine under sustained maximum output operation. Not only is it a design consideration, they have a household name for it.


Originally Posted By: mechtech2
First, we should not assume that the 'Euro' recommendations are superior. The fact is that the USA recommendations are just as likely to be better.

How about neither is "better," and each one has its place?


Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Availability has to be a huge issue in other parts of the world.
5-20 is tough to find elsewhere - the network is not up to speed in all parts of the Globe.
And some sort of momentum of people's old thinking has to be overcome.

Indeed.

 

[IndyIan]

Longer OCI's in other countries are recommended, so the oil has to be able to still perform while being potentially fuel diluted, and sheared for a much longer interval.
What does a 5w20 become after being run for 12,000 miles, or over a year in an engine with 3 timing chains? Maybe 5Wnot good enough?

 

[sxg6]

Ah, the monthly US vs the world viscosity thread. Lets see what has changed over the past month since we last discussed this.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: sxg6
Lets see what has changed over the past month since we last discussed this.

A lot: enzymes, neurotransmitters, insulin, etc. I would hazard a guess that melatonin+seratonin balance is much better due to seasonal cycles, especially in higher latitudes.. Lifestyle deviations also play role, e.g. enzymes drop to 15-20% if a person is sedentary - and metabolic shock could lead to big imbalances elsewhere.
Imagine someone is off nicotine for the whole morning..

Quite a few variables that may move this thread within the second standard deviation.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: sxg6
Lets see what has changed over the past month since we last discussed this.

A lot: enzymes, neurotransmitters, insulin, etc. I would hazard a guess that melatonin+seratonin balance is much better due to seasonal cycles, especially in higher latitudes.. Lifestyle deviations also play role, e.g. enzymes drop to 15-20% if a person is sedentary - and metabolic shock could lead to big imbalances elsewhere.
Imagine someone is off nicotine for the whole morning..

Quite a few variables that may move this thread within the second standard deviation.

Nice.

 

[mechanicx]

It does make you wonder though. I think the main difference is the HTHS but most oils are pretty thin at high temps. You'd think an oil-to-water oil cooler would be the solution over thicker oil. We may not have an autobahn in N. America but we have some very hot temps especially in the southwest with speed limits 75-80, with much higher temps than in Europe and some grades. Add to that we have pick ups speced for 5W20 and towing, sports cars etc. But sometime N. American ups the spec to 5W30 synthetic in high performance applications.

I'd say that one is not better than the other, and it's just a matter of the Euros having higher driving speeds and playing more cautious. I think their long OCI and potential viscosity loss is a factor too. Putting waranty requirements aside and for normal driving I think you could use an average American spec oil and be fine. I don't really know what each Euro car specs. Don't some of mspec 30W? Not all american cars are 20W either.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
OK, we are all aware of differences for oil recommendations from the USA/Canada to the rest of the world.
The trend is that USA gets the thinner stuff.
I believe the engines are the same, with minor intake and tuning differences.
Drive styles? We drive fast around here.
Forget about everyone else driving at Autobahn speeds.

So why?
First, we should not assume that the 'Euro' recommendations are superior. The fact is that the USA recommendations are just as likely to be better.

Availability has to be a huge issue in other parts of the world.
5-20 is tough to find elsewhere - the network is not up to speed in all parts of the Globe.
And some sort of momentum of people's old thinking has to be overcome.

These left handed reasons are what I think are the main reasons for thicker oils recommended elsewhere.


The thinnest oil that still offers full engine protection must always be the best choice. My guess is that's because even on a 70F day 0w-20 is thicker at start-up than 10w-60 is at normal operating temperature. So they reduce start-up wear and in cold environments, I speculate, they do so dramatically. All while offering close to equal protection at standard operating temps in normal cars.
In high demand applications start-up wear is less of a concern than wear in general use, due to the increased stresses certain performance vehicles present.

I think you can gather that 20 weights are superior ONLY in normal cars. Ones that don't stress the heck out of engine components. Toyota, Honda and Ford seem to love the 20 weights. But there are exceptions, the Civic Si mandates a 5w30 doesn't it? Similarly the high end Mustangs require oil thicker than a 20 weight. I'm sure there are other examples, just making a point.

Real European cars such as the entire line from Porsche always have large sumps and require a 40 weight of some kind. Does anyone really know more about engines than Porsche? I doubt it. I'm positive you could decrease start-up wear in a 911 turbo by using 0w-20 but wear would increase under all normal to severe operating conditions vs a 40 weight. Porsche's choice of 0w-40 is probably what their engineers feel is the absolute best compromise that currently exists.

However non-European cars, that are for sale in Europe, is where most of the confusion stems from. These, or a lot of these, seem to allow for 30 and 40 weights where their USA counterparts spec 20 weights. This may be the case where European beliefs and availability conflict with what the ideal oil to run actually is. Toyota didn't start branding their own 0w-20 to meet US CAFE standards that's for sure. I think we'll eventually see 0w-20 being used in Europe. After all every car company in the world has the utmost respect for Toyota. Even Porsche has used them as a consultant in their own manufacturing if I'm not mistaken.

The point I am trying to make is...I forgot what we were talking about.

 

[modularv8]

- 20 weight oils flow quicker on start-up = less wear.

- low friction engines (roller lifters, etc) seem to do best on 20 wt.

- lower viscosity oil forms a greater film at rings.

The area I think most posters seem to be concerned about is the bearings under load.

I did a quick check on different engines (Honda Si, Ford F150, MB 500 series, etc.) and found that engines requiring a higher viscosity oil have higher compression ratios ( 10.5 +); F150 = 9.8:1 (5w20), MB S500 10.7:1 (0w40), Honda Si 11.0:1(5w30).

On a long ago thread, Overkill proposed that part of the oil recommendation depended on the "power density" of the engine. This definitely makes sense. But I wonder if this is the limiting factor, how Ford is able to produce a 400 hp 5.0L engine (Coyote) still using 5w20.

New 20 wt. engines are designed/optimized to run on low viscosity oil (higher volume pumps, larger sumps, oil channels, etc).

Hard to say which viscosity is superior in terms of durability (start-up wear, ring film strength, bearing film strength, etc). But what is definite is the that lower limit (1.6 cP) for HTHS needed to prevent wear is well beyond what we would encounter in even the most demanding everyday operating conditions (heat, towing, etc.).

So does having a higher flow to engine components and greater film strength at the rings equal less wear? I don't know. I've seen studies that clearly show 40wt and greater viscosity oils generate enough shearing heat to bake seals leading to cracked and carbon on seals that will eventually leak. "EFFECT ON FRICTION OF ENGINE OIL SEAL WITH ENGINE OIL VISCOSITY" ,International Journal of Automotive Technology, Vol. 9, No. 5, pp. 601−606 2008.

It seems some engines just wear better than others (Ford, Honda, and Toyota seem to have less wear than GM, Dodge, etc) according to UOA's.

 

[fdcg27]

It seems some engines just wear better than others (Ford, Honda, and Toyota seem to have less wear than GM, Dodge, etc) according to UOA's. [/quote]

I'm not so sure about this.
We have had six Hondas, and the engines seem to hold up very well over the years and miles.
But then we have the Aerostar.
After nearly thirteen years (bought new Sept '97) and nearly 170K, the thing still runs great and requires no oil between changes.
Some GM engines also seem to wear very well, running up to huge mileages.
The more I learn, the less inclined I am to regard Honda engines as being superior to those from Ford and GM.

 

[ledslinger]

Availability has to be a huge issue in other parts of the world.
5-20 is tough to find elsewhere - the network is not up to speed in all parts of the Globe.

mechtech2-It was pretty hard to find when I bought a Honda Accord in 2000 also. Spec the oil and the void will be filled.

- lower viscosity oil forms a greater film at rings.

modularv8- I wonder if this is due to more oil passing the oil control rings. There is evidence of greater oil film at rings, haven't seen evidence it has been proven beneficial.

 

[modularv8]

I had '91 Ford Escort that was nearly indestructable. I rarely changed the oil, ran the engine very hard. Sometimes I'd rev up to 70 mph in second gear. This car could really pull. Everyone that drove it was impressed by its power (mechanics, friends, etc). Anyway, I would mostly topped off with some cheap no brand oil. Replaced 2 roller lifters because they were spun. It ran strong and had very cold A/C with a little over 250k miles before it was totaled by an F350 while sitting at a stop light. Anyway the point is, good maintenance with a quality oil brand, an engine should last easily 300k+ miles.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: modularv8


I did a quick check on different engines (Honda Si, Ford F150, MB 500 series, etc.) and found that engines requiring a higher viscosity oil have higher compression ratios ( 10.5 +); F150 = 9.8:1 (5w20), MB S500 10.7:1 (0w40), Honda Si 11.0:1(5w30).



The Mustang GT500 specs 5W-50 yet the Corvette ZR1 still specs 5w30. And Ford is the 20 weight lover of the two.

GM even states in the ZR1 manual:
"SAE 5w30 is best for the vehicle. Do not use other viscosity oils such as SAE 20W-50."

How the heck does the ZR1 with (almost 640 horsepower) make it with 5w30 and the GT500 (at 540 horsepower) require an oil almost 2 grades thicker?

 

[sprintman]

The U.S has CAFE, the rest of the world doesn't.

 

[sangyup81]

shorter oem recommended OCIs here

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: sprintman
The U.S has CAFE, the rest of the world doesn't.


But Europe has very high gas prices that probably are more effective than CAFE in seeking high fuel economy.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
How the heck does the ZR1 with (almost 640 horsepower) make it with 5w30 and the GT500 (at 540 horsepower) require an oil almost 2 grades thicker?

It's probably because of oil temps (i.e. the GT500 runs hotter).

 

[Kiwi_ME]

There seem to be three variations of Castrol Edge 5w30: North America, Europe, and Australia/NZ. The NA version is significantly thinner. Comparison I made here from product data sheets.

 

[Steve S]

5W-20 is EPA driven. Though it seems to work . Most people don't keep their cars that long.