All that is true but the bottom line is healthcare providers charge too much for their services. Anyway you slice it, it is price gouging for what one is getting. There needs to be more accountability on all levels. That goes for accountability for the consequences of drug use that results in a lot of the NICU newborn's, and accountability on the cost for healthcare services rendered.
No wonder we are going broke..
- Thread starter mechanicx
- Start date
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Most health providers run under 2% operating margin. Quite a lot of them are practically broke - the only thing that saves them is medicaid disproportionate share payments.
As a rule of thumb, you need 5% operating margin to simply sustain operations at a current level.
As a rule of thumb, you need 5% operating margin to simply sustain operations at a current level.
I can see you have some vested interest in healthcare. Every industry claims it is only "making 2% margin" while the people who operate it fly in private jets, drive luxury cars and live in mansion, doctors make an average of about 200K/year (placing them in the top 95% income), nurses make 30/hr with just as associates degree, and just about the only high paying jobs are in healthcare. Healthcare is overpriced, inefficient and a lot of it of questionable value. The truth is the healthcare industry is getting very wealthy at everyone's expense. Most of what they do is not that helpful and oftentimes down right harmful. You always hear how wonderful healthcare is but a better case can be made about how it is not.
When you look at a system where my Cousin drove a BMW, takes antipasto platters to the clinics of overworked doctors (they are the ones booking 13 5 minute appointments pwer hour at $65/appointment), takes them on "free" education seminars to tropical resorts, and hands out eye-charts with the drug of choice hidden in the chart, and free knee/spine/heart models with the drug of choice.
versus her (ex) BIL, with the same qualifications, working for the same company driving around in a white, nondescript Falcon wagon, selling EXACTLY the same drugs, produced on EXACTLY the same production line, using EXACTLY the same ingredients to the same standard of quality...for a tenth the price
Then there's something inherently wrong with the system.
Tyco charging $400 for a 12" latex torniquet, when I can buy a slingshot rubber for $12...yep, there's quality systems, infection control etc. but $388 worth (or 3,000% more) ?
And before anyone mentions legal issues...this is Australia. It doesn't matter what they mess up, you can't sue...period. They leave a tray of tools inside you during surgery, they only have to get them out again.
So legal costs/litigation have nothing to do with the prices.
versus her (ex) BIL, with the same qualifications, working for the same company driving around in a white, nondescript Falcon wagon, selling EXACTLY the same drugs, produced on EXACTLY the same production line, using EXACTLY the same ingredients to the same standard of quality...for a tenth the price
Then there's something inherently wrong with the system.
Tyco charging $400 for a 12" latex torniquet, when I can buy a slingshot rubber for $12...yep, there's quality systems, infection control etc. but $388 worth (or 3,000% more) ?
And before anyone mentions legal issues...this is Australia. It doesn't matter what they mess up, you can't sue...period. They leave a tray of tools inside you during surgery, they only have to get them out again.
So legal costs/litigation have nothing to do with the prices.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,793
Quote:
The great irony here is that you lived and profited off the greatest bubble ever created.
Did I? How do you know this? Suppose I was one of the losers in our economic scheme? You're asserting that poverty here was better than anywhere else ..and I can tell that you obviously have NEVER experienced it.
Quote:
Your biggest mistake is that you didn't question that post war ponzi until you started losing yield when they ran out of suckers to feed into the ponzi behind you.
No ..my biggest mistake was having faith in those who led us down a path of self destruction for their benefit. To really BELIEVE that this was a GREAT nation for all of us and that we could take pride in being Americans.
Foolish faith in stuff like national pride ..patriotism .. ..all the garbage that you keenly saw through and figured that while there were still suckers to buy into it ..distracted with all the trinkets and bribes with their own money ..that you would quietly position yourself outside the corral that they were all herded into.
Your biggest claim to knowledge is that you saw the mass deception and escaped it. You knew that all the rhetoric was just for the masses and unless you wanted to be among them, you had to quietly allow the lemmings to march to the sea.
Congrats!! Your self interest allows you to say, "America!! The greatest nation on the planet!!" for it provided enough fodder for you to prosper.
Rush needs you.
The great irony here is that you lived and profited off the greatest bubble ever created.
Did I? How do you know this? Suppose I was one of the losers in our economic scheme? You're asserting that poverty here was better than anywhere else ..and I can tell that you obviously have NEVER experienced it.
Quote:
Your biggest mistake is that you didn't question that post war ponzi until you started losing yield when they ran out of suckers to feed into the ponzi behind you.
No ..my biggest mistake was having faith in those who led us down a path of self destruction for their benefit. To really BELIEVE that this was a GREAT nation for all of us and that we could take pride in being Americans.
Foolish faith in stuff like national pride ..patriotism .. ..all the garbage that you keenly saw through and figured that while there were still suckers to buy into it ..distracted with all the trinkets and bribes with their own money ..that you would quietly position yourself outside the corral that they were all herded into.
Your biggest claim to knowledge is that you saw the mass deception and escaped it. You knew that all the rhetoric was just for the masses and unless you wanted to be among them, you had to quietly allow the lemmings to march to the sea.
Congrats!! Your self interest allows you to say, "America!! The greatest nation on the planet!!" for it provided enough fodder for you to prosper.
Rush needs you.
Reading some of these stories really makes me said. Personally I don't believe someone should go broke because they or someone in their family became sick.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
They do pull the balance more toward the socialist side of the spectrum. It's just that people don't always deal well with shades of gray...
I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
They do pull the balance more toward the socialist side of the spectrum. It's just that people don't always deal well with shades of gray...
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Reading some of these stories really makes me said. Personally I don't believe someone should go broke because they or someone in their family became sick.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
Yes:
Public schools are failing. We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure.
Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?
Public water systems. Just saw a news story about how many water systems in MO fail to meet standards.
So we want to add healthcare to a government system that cannot run the other things you want to cite as a success? I think not.
It's not that I don't think such things are laudable goals, I simply don't trust the same clowns who run those things, at a deficit to be in charge of 1/7th of the economy.
At least with healthcare being privatized, I can choose if I want to participate or not. With it becoming a government operation, my choice is taken away. I cannot opt out of the taxes if I feel it's not a good value, or not meeting my needs, etc.
If you want to fix it, fit it in a fashion that doesn't involve the government spending any money on it, and not requiring taxpayers to subsidize healthcare for others. Because once you do those two things, you give politicians another way to buy votes with my (and your) money.
I simply want a smaller hand in my pocket so I can make more and more of the choices. So if you want to fix it, fix it. Feel free to reach into your own pocket, but don't propose a solution that forces anyone to pay for others.
Reading some of these stories really makes me said. Personally I don't believe someone should go broke because they or someone in their family became sick.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
Yes:
Public schools are failing. We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure.
Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?
Public water systems. Just saw a news story about how many water systems in MO fail to meet standards.
So we want to add healthcare to a government system that cannot run the other things you want to cite as a success? I think not.
It's not that I don't think such things are laudable goals, I simply don't trust the same clowns who run those things, at a deficit to be in charge of 1/7th of the economy.
At least with healthcare being privatized, I can choose if I want to participate or not. With it becoming a government operation, my choice is taken away. I cannot opt out of the taxes if I feel it's not a good value, or not meeting my needs, etc.
If you want to fix it, fit it in a fashion that doesn't involve the government spending any money on it, and not requiring taxpayers to subsidize healthcare for others. Because once you do those two things, you give politicians another way to buy votes with my (and your) money.
I simply want a smaller hand in my pocket so I can make more and more of the choices. So if you want to fix it, fix it. Feel free to reach into your own pocket, but don't propose a solution that forces anyone to pay for others.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
At least with healthcare being privatized, I can choose if I want to participate or not. With it becoming a government operation, my choice is taken away. I cannot opt out of the taxes if I feel it's not a good value, or not meeting my needs, etc.
If you want to fix it, fit it in a fashion that doesn't involve the government spending any money on it, and not requiring taxpayers to subsidize healthcare for others.
But you ARE paying for it.
A fat chunk of every dollar you pay at every point in the system ends up in some way subsidizing the punks and scrubs -- and the genuinely unfortunate people -- who won't or can't pay their own bills.
You can't just say it's none of your business. It's yours, and mine, and everyone else's, whether we like it or not.
At least with healthcare being privatized, I can choose if I want to participate or not. With it becoming a government operation, my choice is taken away. I cannot opt out of the taxes if I feel it's not a good value, or not meeting my needs, etc.
If you want to fix it, fit it in a fashion that doesn't involve the government spending any money on it, and not requiring taxpayers to subsidize healthcare for others.
But you ARE paying for it.
A fat chunk of every dollar you pay at every point in the system ends up in some way subsidizing the punks and scrubs -- and the genuinely unfortunate people -- who won't or can't pay their own bills.
You can't just say it's none of your business. It's yours, and mine, and everyone else's, whether we like it or not.
You would truly believe that a private road, home schooled, private watered America would be a better country?
You can point to certain flaws in areas.. like a few bridges that need maintainence, but overall I'd say the engineers and teachers and construction workers are doing a fine job.
"We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure. "
The problem is not in the system, it's the culture. Unless you want to suggest that communist China's systems must be better since their grades are better! Kidding.
You are nitpicking flaws but not seeing the overall big picture. You could use another developed Western country like Sweden or Norway, or Canada.
"Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?"
I live in British Columbia and I would say almost none.
Contrary to what you are saying I woudl say the roads in America are among the best. THe school system consists of some of the finest universities. People universally have access to clean water.
I was talking to a coworker from America whos 2 year old daughter cut her foot badly and ended up being paying $3,000 for a little bit a taped up bandage. That is an absolute injustice!
You can point to certain flaws in areas.. like a few bridges that need maintainence, but overall I'd say the engineers and teachers and construction workers are doing a fine job.
"We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure. "
The problem is not in the system, it's the culture. Unless you want to suggest that communist China's systems must be better since their grades are better! Kidding.
You are nitpicking flaws but not seeing the overall big picture. You could use another developed Western country like Sweden or Norway, or Canada.
"Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?"
I live in British Columbia and I would say almost none.
Contrary to what you are saying I woudl say the roads in America are among the best. THe school system consists of some of the finest universities. People universally have access to clean water.
I was talking to a coworker from America whos 2 year old daughter cut her foot badly and ended up being paying $3,000 for a little bit a taped up bandage. That is an absolute injustice!
Last edited:
I'm sure this will get me flamed, but I'm re-posting this from a Facebook post I saw a while back..but it sums up some of my thoughts quite well. Is Gubment involvement that bad?
"This morning I was awakened by my alarm clock powered by the electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Dept of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service (of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration) determined the weather was going to be like (using satellites launched and maintained by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration). I watched while eating my breakfast of US Dept of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of quality level determined and tested by Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence thanks to state and local building codes, fire marshall's inspections during government-overseen construction (and possibly since), and the vigilant watch of my city and county Fire Departments. I find my home has not been plundered of all it's valuables thanks to the cooperation of the city, county, and state Police Department.
I then log on to the Internet (which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration) and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how government involvement in healthcare is SOCIALISM which is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
Nearly all of the "government" provided services actually encourage jobs in the private sector - making things and delivering services. (One man's government inefficiency is another Corporation's revenue and profits). The government part takes care of things that the private sector wouldn't bother with or couldn't do efficiently because there's a lack of corporate incentive - safety, security, environmental etc - so that consumers and the society collectively can benefit and focus on what the private sector does well - innovate, use the marketplace to influence preferences (advertise) and fulfill needs and wants. Our system of free-market + government is a great manifestation of the social compact that allows self-interest and community interest to achieve a better outcome for a greater number of its members. Yelling from the extremes is not likely to solve any tough problems - it's simply a distraction, or worse a distortion when people yell lies."
"This morning I was awakened by my alarm clock powered by the electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Dept of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility.
After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service (of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration) determined the weather was going to be like (using satellites launched and maintained by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration). I watched while eating my breakfast of US Dept of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.
At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of quality level determined and tested by Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.
After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence thanks to state and local building codes, fire marshall's inspections during government-overseen construction (and possibly since), and the vigilant watch of my city and county Fire Departments. I find my home has not been plundered of all it's valuables thanks to the cooperation of the city, county, and state Police Department.
I then log on to the Internet (which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration) and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how government involvement in healthcare is SOCIALISM which is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
Nearly all of the "government" provided services actually encourage jobs in the private sector - making things and delivering services. (One man's government inefficiency is another Corporation's revenue and profits). The government part takes care of things that the private sector wouldn't bother with or couldn't do efficiently because there's a lack of corporate incentive - safety, security, environmental etc - so that consumers and the society collectively can benefit and focus on what the private sector does well - innovate, use the marketplace to influence preferences (advertise) and fulfill needs and wants. Our system of free-market + government is a great manifestation of the social compact that allows self-interest and community interest to achieve a better outcome for a greater number of its members. Yelling from the extremes is not likely to solve any tough problems - it's simply a distraction, or worse a distortion when people yell lies."
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
The question was, would you pull the plug on the newborn? If you do, you save the system $2 million.
Or would you pull the plug on the cancer procedure to save $500k for the system?
How about working to get the cost from $2 million down to $1 million? That's what I'm talking about.
Do you know how much the items I mentioned above cost? Nothing in the listed items is cheap. There definitely is wasted resources because of the free market structure of the health care industry but you can't have such a dramatic reduction in costs without shifting the paradigm.
But, would you be willing to go to a single payer (federal government) and single provider (government run hospitals) system like the Veterans Affairs?
I think javacontour explained fairly well why healthcare costs are so high. If everyone paid for their own healthcare (by having their own insurance, of course), cost would come down dramatically.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
The question was, would you pull the plug on the newborn? If you do, you save the system $2 million.
Or would you pull the plug on the cancer procedure to save $500k for the system?
How about working to get the cost from $2 million down to $1 million? That's what I'm talking about.
Do you know how much the items I mentioned above cost? Nothing in the listed items is cheap. There definitely is wasted resources because of the free market structure of the health care industry but you can't have such a dramatic reduction in costs without shifting the paradigm.
But, would you be willing to go to a single payer (federal government) and single provider (government run hospitals) system like the Veterans Affairs?
I think javacontour explained fairly well why healthcare costs are so high. If everyone paid for their own healthcare (by having their own insurance, of course), cost would come down dramatically.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
You would truly believe that a private road, home schooled, private watered America would be a better country?
Until we get a better crop of folks in office, I say we give them no more to handle. In other words, until they are better managing the resources they are already given to administer those things, then yes, we are better off not allowing them control over any more.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
You can point to certain flaws in areas.. like a few bridges that need maintainence, but overall I'd say the engineers and teachers and construction workers are doing a fine job.
I'm not saying the teachers or construction workers are the problem. I'm saying the ones making the decisions about how to spend the tax money are the problem. I.E. the elected officials. They've not made choices that result in those institutions getting better. Instead, they've gotten worse.
Therefore, until they right the ship with respect to the things they already run, coming in under budget and with better results I see no need to reward their current incompetence with more responsibility and more taxpayer money.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
"We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure. "
The problem is not in the system, it's the culture. Unless you want to suggest that communist China's systems must be better since their grades are better! Kidding.
Glad you agree. The culture that thinks Washington DC knows best, or some elected political official knows better than the local guy on the ground is a large part of the problem. The culture of transferring money from one district to another to reward those who vote for one party or another is a part of the problem. The culture of keeping a weapons system the Pentagon doesn't want because it preserves jobs in the district is a large part of the problem. The culture of we can't build a road or bridge without funds from DC is a large part of the problem.
I agree, it's a cultural problem, and I'm all for not giving the DC culture any more money or responsibility. I'm also for a cultural change that local governments are best situated to spend their own resources to solve their own issues rather than sending money to DC and hoping it comes back to the district, but with strings on how it can be spent.
As you can tell, I agree, it's a cultural issue. The culture of a large Federal Government is a large part of the problem.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
You are nitpicking flaws but not seeing the overall big picture. You could use another developed Western country like Sweden or Norway, or Canada.
But I don't live there. I live in America. A nation founded by those who fled Europe. A nation whose founding principles were largely based on self determination and self reliance. A nation that was built on the idea that the citizen, given freedom will prosper and flourish.
Our growth has slowed because we've gotten away from that idea. We've forgotten that our best growth is when we let the citizen chart his/her own course.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
"Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?"
I live in British Columbia and I would say almost none.
Contrary to what you are saying I woudl say the roads in America are among the best. THe school system consists of some of the finest universities. People universally have access to clean water.
I was talking to a coworker from America whos 2 year old daughter cut her foot badly and ended up being paying $3,000 for a little bit a taped up bandage. That is an absolute injustice!
That's because $2700 is going to pay for the other 10 people who don't pay their bills, so they soak those who have insurance.
I agree, $3000 for a cut foot is insane. But even more insane is to expect the Federal Government to make the situation better by taking control of more of the action.
I don't disagree that health care needs fixing. I simply disagree that mandates from Washington DC are the right solution.
Let each state figure it out. Make those who use health care personally go before the folks they are asking to pay the bills and explain why someone else should pay their bill. If their story doesn't pass muster, then sorry, you are on the hook for your own bill.
The social contract needs to go both ways and not just expecting those who have money or insurance to pay the way for those who don't.
Let's stop demonizing both those who've succeeded and those who've failed. No more bailouts for anyone.
Let's allow folks to opt out of things like Social Security if they don't believe it's in their best interests. Let's let them get their contributions back.
The federal government has proven it's incompetent to manage that money. Instead of investing it for a market rate of return, it loans it to itself and has filled the Social Security trust fund "lock box" (ha!) with a bunch of IOUs.
That right there is proof these folks shouldn't be in charge of anything larger than a lemonade stand. Yet folks want them to take over health care?
As others have said before, if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free. It will be even more costly relative to it's current percentage of GDP and consume more taxes than it does in current taxes, premiums and cash payments even when adjusted for inflation.
Mark my words.
You would truly believe that a private road, home schooled, private watered America would be a better country?
Until we get a better crop of folks in office, I say we give them no more to handle. In other words, until they are better managing the resources they are already given to administer those things, then yes, we are better off not allowing them control over any more.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
You can point to certain flaws in areas.. like a few bridges that need maintainence, but overall I'd say the engineers and teachers and construction workers are doing a fine job.
I'm not saying the teachers or construction workers are the problem. I'm saying the ones making the decisions about how to spend the tax money are the problem. I.E. the elected officials. They've not made choices that result in those institutions getting better. Instead, they've gotten worse.
Therefore, until they right the ship with respect to the things they already run, coming in under budget and with better results I see no need to reward their current incompetence with more responsibility and more taxpayer money.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
"We are the richest nation on the planet, but our kids graduate high school without being able to read or write. We typically don't even rank in the top 10 when it comes to how we educate our children. Given how much we spend, I'd say it's a failure. "
The problem is not in the system, it's the culture. Unless you want to suggest that communist China's systems must be better since their grades are better! Kidding.
Glad you agree. The culture that thinks Washington DC knows best, or some elected political official knows better than the local guy on the ground is a large part of the problem. The culture of transferring money from one district to another to reward those who vote for one party or another is a part of the problem. The culture of keeping a weapons system the Pentagon doesn't want because it preserves jobs in the district is a large part of the problem. The culture of we can't build a road or bridge without funds from DC is a large part of the problem.
I agree, it's a cultural problem, and I'm all for not giving the DC culture any more money or responsibility. I'm also for a cultural change that local governments are best situated to spend their own resources to solve their own issues rather than sending money to DC and hoping it comes back to the district, but with strings on how it can be spent.
As you can tell, I agree, it's a cultural issue. The culture of a large Federal Government is a large part of the problem.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
You are nitpicking flaws but not seeing the overall big picture. You could use another developed Western country like Sweden or Norway, or Canada.
But I don't live there. I live in America. A nation founded by those who fled Europe. A nation whose founding principles were largely based on self determination and self reliance. A nation that was built on the idea that the citizen, given freedom will prosper and flourish.
Our growth has slowed because we've gotten away from that idea. We've forgotten that our best growth is when we let the citizen chart his/her own course.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
"Public roads. They were built, but are not being maintained. How many bridges in your state are failing or in desperate need of repair?"
I live in British Columbia and I would say almost none.
Contrary to what you are saying I woudl say the roads in America are among the best. THe school system consists of some of the finest universities. People universally have access to clean water.
I was talking to a coworker from America whos 2 year old daughter cut her foot badly and ended up being paying $3,000 for a little bit a taped up bandage. That is an absolute injustice!
That's because $2700 is going to pay for the other 10 people who don't pay their bills, so they soak those who have insurance.
I agree, $3000 for a cut foot is insane. But even more insane is to expect the Federal Government to make the situation better by taking control of more of the action.
I don't disagree that health care needs fixing. I simply disagree that mandates from Washington DC are the right solution.
Let each state figure it out. Make those who use health care personally go before the folks they are asking to pay the bills and explain why someone else should pay their bill. If their story doesn't pass muster, then sorry, you are on the hook for your own bill.
The social contract needs to go both ways and not just expecting those who have money or insurance to pay the way for those who don't.
Let's stop demonizing both those who've succeeded and those who've failed. No more bailouts for anyone.
Let's allow folks to opt out of things like Social Security if they don't believe it's in their best interests. Let's let them get their contributions back.
The federal government has proven it's incompetent to manage that money. Instead of investing it for a market rate of return, it loans it to itself and has filled the Social Security trust fund "lock box" (ha!) with a bunch of IOUs.
That right there is proof these folks shouldn't be in charge of anything larger than a lemonade stand. Yet folks want them to take over health care?
As others have said before, if you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free. It will be even more costly relative to it's current percentage of GDP and consume more taxes than it does in current taxes, premiums and cash payments even when adjusted for inflation.
Mark my words.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Reading some of these stories really makes me said. Personally I don't believe someone should go broke because they or someone in their family became sick.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
I'm not saying I have anything against public/non profit health insurance, or providing "free" healthcare to the needed, or all public services in general. Heck I even read that medicare costs less than when private insurance companies administer it. I just question whether health insurance all together is controlling costs.
I just think people need to know what they are paying for healthcare and to some how pay it directly to have more control over costs and what they are getting. I don't know how it could be done, but if people were seeing what they were paying and any savings they get were to go back in their pockets. we'd see more reasonable an affordable health insurance and better care.
Reading some of these stories really makes me said. Personally I don't believe someone should go broke because they or someone in their family became sick.
In the past, people have been against:
Public schools
Public roads
Public water systems
Public Education
Can we really look back and say they were bad things? I doubt anyone know would see those as 'bad', or 'socialist'.
It's time we add public healthcare to that list.
I'm not saying I have anything against public/non profit health insurance, or providing "free" healthcare to the needed, or all public services in general. Heck I even read that medicare costs less than when private insurance companies administer it. I just question whether health insurance all together is controlling costs.
I just think people need to know what they are paying for healthcare and to some how pay it directly to have more control over costs and what they are getting. I don't know how it could be done, but if people were seeing what they were paying and any savings they get were to go back in their pockets. we'd see more reasonable an affordable health insurance and better care.
No transparancy in the system. No competition to keep prices down.
Can't blame this on any one particular politican when we have how many in office? Supposed to have checks and balances, right?
Can't blame this on any one particular politican when we have how many in office? Supposed to have checks and balances, right?
Originally Posted By: Virtuoso
No transparancy.
I dont know what that means?
No transparancy.
I dont know what that means?
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