Anything wrong using Scheaffers 7000 in a TDI? It's not 100% synthetic but it sure has good specs.
New VW TDI which oil
- Thread starter Neil Womack
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Jim,Yes it does and I'd use it in a heart beat with no second thoughts about it. We do have many that do use it in tdi's. I also would take a sample and verify how it is doing just to see how long it can go without pushing it's limits like I'd do with any other oil .
bob
I have had great success with Amsoil's 10w40 which will give you close performance to the Delvac 1. Like Terry Said the 15w40 is the best price for any full pao/ester synthetic out there.
Lastly, I've also run the Series 2000 0w30 in El Paso for 10,000 miles with great success. Though I didn't get a sample of that one as I had moved and needed to do a change and my wife took it to the dealer.
The Plan for my 2003 TDI now with 6500 miles is to run the Amsoil 10w40 Until 10,000 at which time I'm putting on the by-pass and going with the Series 2000 0w30.
I plan on running the Schaeffers 7000 15w40 after the initial 5000 with OEM stuff. Terry will run the analysis at the 10000 mile change and I'm publish the results.
Amsoil Series 3000 5w30
Amsoil 10w-40
Amsoil 15w40
All 3 oils are full synthetic CI-4/ACEA B3 and meet VW 505 specs.
I'm currently using Amsoil 15w40 in my 2000 Golf TDI and my 1991 Jetta 1.6 Diesel.
Neil, Keep in mind that you need to run a Full Synthetic in that engine. I would anyway just for the sake of the oil-cooled turbo. But, as has been pointed out in other areas of this board, conventional oil burns and plugs the ring grooves. Schaeffers is good oil, but the 70% dead conventionalsaurs will cause trouble over time.
At least go with a 100% group III.
Andy
96 Passat TDI 100K
At least go with a 100% group III.
Andy
96 Passat TDI 100K
Ok, Andy,You being an amsoil user, could you tell me how you can qualify your statement about Schaeffers? Did you come to this conclusion base on what base oil we use from the tech data sheets? Maybe I need to tell the guys that are using the supreme 7000 they shouldn't be using it because you said so? I don't mean to come off irritated, but if you are going to post this off the wall statement about schaeffers, I suggest you come back with your reasons so we can all see how your basing your statement of fact.
thank you.
bob
I've seen the best oil analysis results in this engine with low viscosity, 5w30/5w-40, CH-4 or CI-4 rated synthetic diesel oils.
The preferred Amsoil product for this application is their Series 3000, 5w30. Delvac 1, 5w-40 greatly outperforms Mobil 1 in this engine, so I wouldn't even consider any other Mobil synthetic in this case.
All the Group III, 5w-40 oils like Chevron Delo 400, Petro Canada and the Shell Rotella T, 5w-40 have also worked well.
VW specifically recommends the use of synthetic oil in this engine. Since I've never gotten a complete answer as to why, I am loath to deviate from it.
TooSlick
The preferred Amsoil product for this application is their Series 3000, 5w30. Delvac 1, 5w-40 greatly outperforms Mobil 1 in this engine, so I wouldn't even consider any other Mobil synthetic in this case.
All the Group III, 5w-40 oils like Chevron Delo 400, Petro Canada and the Shell Rotella T, 5w-40 have also worked well.
VW specifically recommends the use of synthetic oil in this engine. Since I've never gotten a complete answer as to why, I am loath to deviate from it.
TooSlick
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I would love to see a few sequential 10,000 mile intervals with Schaeffer's 15w40. Other than being a 15W- they meet all of the other requirements for the TDI. VWo'A says to use a "synthetic" oil in the TDI but oddly enough VWo'Deutschland doesn't have this same specification. If you stop off at the local VW händler in Berlin or Münchin they will have sitting on their shelves a assortment of oils that meet the TDI specs ranging from 5W-40 Gp. 3 'synthetics' to 15w40 mineral oils. I have seen 5W-40, 10W-40, 15w40 and 20W-50 oils all specifically offered for the 66 kw (90 HP) TDI.
Since the Schaeffer's meets every requirement of the TDI then I see no problems whatsoever with using it. And the price is right!!
Since the Schaeffer's meets every requirement of the TDI then I see no problems whatsoever with using it. And the price is right!!
Well, did I understand this correctly, they recommend the use of Synthetic but then what are they using? Castrol? is that a Full Synthetic or is it just an oil with Synthetic in it? Op's, this is where a play on words come in. Remember why so many people don't like castrol synthetic? If they use castrol synthetic, then obviously, it isn't that important for it to be a Full Synthetic but an oil that can meet the specs. Otherwise, you'd think it would be using mobil or amsoil only.
Ben,
The Group III basestocks are somewhere between the PAO's and the petroleum lubes when it comes to residues left after thermal decomposition. Sulphated ash on most of the Amsoil diesel oils is approx 1.5% I'm told. It is difficult for the Group III oils to meet the ACEA B4 engine tests, which include testing in a VW TDI to evaluate piston deposits and ring sticking. Most of the ACEA A3/B4 oils you find in Europe contain at least some PAO to improve the high temp properties.
I have seen some problems with older Passat TDI engines that used conventional oils - specifically in the area of high temp piston deposits. I believe this is one of the main reasons why VW mandates the use of synthetic lubes in this engine. These older passats show very high levels of chrome/iron in oil analyses. This is a dead giveaway that the rings are stuck in their grooves.
TooSlick
The Group III basestocks are somewhere between the PAO's and the petroleum lubes when it comes to residues left after thermal decomposition. Sulphated ash on most of the Amsoil diesel oils is approx 1.5% I'm told. It is difficult for the Group III oils to meet the ACEA B4 engine tests, which include testing in a VW TDI to evaluate piston deposits and ring sticking. Most of the ACEA A3/B4 oils you find in Europe contain at least some PAO to improve the high temp properties.
I have seen some problems with older Passat TDI engines that used conventional oils - specifically in the area of high temp piston deposits. I believe this is one of the main reasons why VW mandates the use of synthetic lubes in this engine. These older passats show very high levels of chrome/iron in oil analyses. This is a dead giveaway that the rings are stuck in their grooves.
TooSlick
I'm just now approaching the 3000 mile mark so the first of the Schaeffer's Series 7000 15w40 goes into service in 30 to 45 days with the first Schaeffer's analysis being drawn around mid July at the 10,000 mile mark. After that Terry will advise when to test the second round of Schaeffer's.
I have not run the cost benefit analysis numbers yet but I suspect when comparing Delvac 1 at $26.00 (local price) a gallon and Schaeffer's at $12.00. Break even will be around 6000 miles changing the $7.00 OEM filter at each oil change.
Break even meaning even if Schaeffer's only hold up 6000 miles the cost between using Delvac 1 for a 10,000 mile interval and Schaeffer's at a 6000 mile interval the costs would be the same over time.
Then any distance beyond the break even will be money in my pocket.
I have not run the cost benefit analysis numbers yet but I suspect when comparing Delvac 1 at $26.00 (local price) a gallon and Schaeffer's at $12.00. Break even will be around 6000 miles changing the $7.00 OEM filter at each oil change.
Break even meaning even if Schaeffer's only hold up 6000 miles the cost between using Delvac 1 for a 10,000 mile interval and Schaeffer's at a 6000 mile interval the costs would be the same over time.
Then any distance beyond the break even will be money in my pocket.
BOTTOM LINE COST ANALYSIS FOR: Neil
Cost per Capacity Oil cost Labor cost Change Filter Miles/hours Annual Total cost Total cost
gallon in gallons per change per change Interval* Cost per year Changes per change per year
CURRENT OIL
Delvac 1 $26.00 1.5 $39.00 $0.00 10,000 $7.00 15,000 1.50 $46.00 $69.00
SCHAEFFER OIL
Supreme 7000 $12.00 1.5 $18.00 $0.00 10,000 $7.00 15,000 1.50 $25.00 $37.50
*Based on oil analysis.
TOTAL SAVINGS PER VEHICHLE: $31.50 1 VEHICLE FLEET
FUEL
TOTAL FLEET OIL RELATED SAVINGS: $31.50
CURRENT MPG/GPH:22
FLEET FUEL SAVINGS AT 3%: $30.68 CURRENT FUEL COST/Gallon: $1.50
CURRENT FUEL COST/YEAR:$1,022.73
GRAND TOTAL FLEET SAVINGS: $62.18
Savings are hard costs of oil, labor, and filters only.
Breakeven change interval in miles/hours: 5434.8
NOTE: Breakeven interval is a function of oil, labor, and filter costs only. Other benefits include:
Increased parts life.
Faster cold starts.
Decreased oil consumption.
Decreased downtime.
Increased fuel economy.
JLD/SMC 4/28/99 Reduced oil disposal costs.
More time for enhanced PM.
maybe this will help you with the numbers neil.
[ April 14, 2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]
Cost per Capacity Oil cost Labor cost Change Filter Miles/hours Annual Total cost Total cost
gallon in gallons per change per change Interval* Cost per year Changes per change per year
CURRENT OIL
Delvac 1 $26.00 1.5 $39.00 $0.00 10,000 $7.00 15,000 1.50 $46.00 $69.00
SCHAEFFER OIL
Supreme 7000 $12.00 1.5 $18.00 $0.00 10,000 $7.00 15,000 1.50 $25.00 $37.50
*Based on oil analysis.
TOTAL SAVINGS PER VEHICHLE: $31.50 1 VEHICLE FLEET
FUEL
TOTAL FLEET OIL RELATED SAVINGS: $31.50
CURRENT MPG/GPH:22
FLEET FUEL SAVINGS AT 3%: $30.68 CURRENT FUEL COST/Gallon: $1.50
CURRENT FUEL COST/YEAR:$1,022.73
GRAND TOTAL FLEET SAVINGS: $62.18
Savings are hard costs of oil, labor, and filters only.
Breakeven change interval in miles/hours: 5434.8
NOTE: Breakeven interval is a function of oil, labor, and filter costs only. Other benefits include:
Increased parts life.
Faster cold starts.
Decreased oil consumption.
Decreased downtime.
Increased fuel economy.
JLD/SMC 4/28/99 Reduced oil disposal costs.
More time for enhanced PM.
maybe this will help you with the numbers neil.
[ April 14, 2004, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]
Neil,
Running a 5w30 or 5w-40 synthetic, you can expect a fuel savings of 3%-5% compared to running a 15w40 petroleum oil. There are no savings running a petroleum oil in the TDI when you factor in the shorter drain intervals and the value of your labor.
Save the 15w40 for the farm tractors where it will do an excellent job. Seriously ...
TooSlick
Running a 5w30 or 5w-40 synthetic, you can expect a fuel savings of 3%-5% compared to running a 15w40 petroleum oil. There are no savings running a petroleum oil in the TDI when you factor in the shorter drain intervals and the value of your labor.
Save the 15w40 for the farm tractors where it will do an excellent job. Seriously ...
TooSlick
Bob, Sorry to dredge this up again after all this time. I've been away awhile and didn't see your question.
The comment, which I will continue to support, is about the VW mandate that only synthetic lube be used in the engine. The piston rings are very high, petroleum burns and fills the rin lands. I know a bit about why VW changed their recommendation because the previous owner of my TDI Passat chose to use petroleum in the engine...
While a group III oil is considered 'synthetic' in a court of law (no, I don't like that either), a blend of no less than 80% petroleum and no more than 20% synthetic of any type still has way too much petroleum. Even if you load it with molly.
I don't consider a 'learned-from-experience' change in procedure from a manufacturer to be 'off the wall'. I'm sorry you do.
Andy
I frequent the same site you do Andy on the VW issue. I have seen your arguments for your line of thinking and using VW's argument for Synthetic. I have read the VW literature stating this requirement. BUT the synthetic VWoA uses at their Dealerships is Castrol Syntec 5W40, Group III. Period. Not Full Synthetic Grp. IV/V like you would like it to be. If it meets VW spec. then use it.
[ May 05, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
[ May 05, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
Now I'm not trying to pick on you as this may come off this way but you are failing miserably understanding that picking an oil based on one or two items from a tech data sheet IS NOT the way to choose an oil. Based on your statement, you've made it clear, if it's not a "full" synthetic base oil, then don't run it, YET, from my understanding, many VW's are running around with "castrol syntec" which we all know is not a Full Synthetic when you look at the base oil properties. Unfortunately, you have grouped Schaeffers in with some of the lower quality oil in respect saying it isn't going to work because someone tried it with some other brand of conventional and supposedly it had no less than 20% synthetic. What other oil has that percentage that was used which you based your opinion on schaeffers with?
Point is Andy, Your statement is based on an unknown. You have never run Schaeffers, you have based your opinion about schaeffers based on what you believe other oils represent. First let me clear something here, moly in no way is what makes an oil let alone Schaeffers. As you can see, many oils have moly but,.... Just putting in a barrier additive in an oil doesn't make it good.
I see a lot of people basing their opinion about an oil as being good or not if it has moly in it. Just as you are using Noack Volatility(assume that since it must be synthetic according to you) to determine if it can be used or not. Yes, it will help as a guide but doesn't mean that oil will hold up.That's just ONE little aspect to a good oil.
You are basing your opinion on the base oil quality only and even at that you are so far off about what is or isn't good. Mixtures of different types of base oils can produce a wide range of quality base oils. Where some base oils increase VI's, others mix better with additives, others have better antioxidant abilities and the list goes on, so to say one base stock is better than the other is so mis leading as it can prove out that many oils are a mixture of base stocks and you're only seeing one little aspect and really, you'll have a tough time showing what exactly the base oil is comprised of. What you think one brand of oil is, may fall into a classification, and another brand of oil under the same classification is blended differently and has different characteristics. Maybe if you look at this closely, you'll understand just how many types of base oils there are and how each have their advantages/disadvantages and how one can help the other, vers where the use of only one will not do as well as a mixture of several.
The different Types of Base oils and how they work. Also, if you go all the way through this discusses the castrol syntec issue and how they and mobil got into it.
To say Schaeffers isn't good enough to run in such a vehicle, well, again, your opinion based on some what kind of conventional oil that didn't perform? Was it schaeffers? I don't think so, this is why I feel you really need to base your opinion more of fact, not generalization. Unless YOU have run it, or have someone that has and seen the rings pulled and determine it doesn't work, I along with others on here would love to see pics, and or even oil analysis that would support your opinion. This is why we use the oil analysis so much as it has shown where people such as yourself touts one thing but the analysis demonstrates you're incorrect in your assumption many times. So, again, I ask, please, support your comment about Schaeffers being not a good choice, that's what I'm saying, not based on one little aspect of the tech data sheet that fails miserably at really showing how an oil will work since you haven't got all the facts on a tech data sheet it's impossible to make a determination as to which is better. Yes a TD sheet gives you some basic idea of how the oil is designed but what you don't understand it that there is many things that play a role in making a good oil other than just a base stock or a specific additive such as moly.
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