New VW TDI which oil

[Patman]

Let's all sing together now:

"This is the thread that never ends
It just goes on and on, my friend
Someone started posting it not knowing what it was
And they'll go on posting it forever just because
This is the thread that never ends
It just goes on and on, my friend
Someone started posting it not knowing what it was
And they'll go on posting it forever because
This is the thread that never ends..."

 

[Terry]

OK, guys lets look at some standardized, ASTM test data taken in 2000 by an independent lab. Using data produced for Amsoil AME 15w-40, and Schaeffers 7000 Blend 15w-40.

I don't have enough long term UOA to share on this forum to compare the 2 oils in the TDI.

Please TDI guys use our service !!!

I do have alot of data including an in- house test with Cummins TD engines showing the Schaeffers branded product performing equally with AME in the same application while generating less wear. The data below supports that UOA data carryover.

AME / Scha blend

Gelation index D5133 11.3 /< 6.0

Operating Vis D4683 3.98cP/ 3.91cP

Oxidation resistance D4742 182 min/ 186 min

NOACK volatility D5800 9.09% / 13.62%

Shear stability D5275 9.95% / 9.34%

Start Vis D5293 2938 cP / 2678cP

Pump Vis 4684 13329 cP/ 17878cP

From this data you can see very little difference between a "full" synthetic product and the blend.
The blend product actually has a better gelation index which is a critical lube characteristic as engines are started, shut down allowed to slowly cool and restarted after a few hours.The temps most critical to this aspect are not very cold. Think about sucking jello up a straw instead of liquid to visualize this affect, lots of start up wear effect with this aspect. >6 warning, >12 danger,>15 jello oil.

The 4% diff in the NOACK volatilty #s are not significant when correlated to actual operation as it is more severe than either oil will ever see in the TDI. Both product tech sheets show less than the indpendent tests. AME 6%, Blend 11%

Oxidation resistance is basically equal and indicates that the blend is slightly more oxidatively stable than the synthetic brand.

The AME pumps somewhat easier as we would expect but is more resistant to a starter cranking in cold temps,+5F,a point I would have not thought an issue with a full syntnetic.

I want to close with data from a 10,000 mile UOA analysis that was posted online using Petro Canada Duron XL 0w-30 in a TDI ,2000. Oxidation was 8% very low. Nitration 11% very low. Both indicate the high temp issues encountered in this engine design and that the hydrocracked petroleum oil if properly formulated performed well. Even the wrong weight based on the Data shared above.

Which is my point,the END PRODUCT is what we care about NOT API certs or semantics when it comes to performance.

The bench tested differences listed between the 2 great motor oils above are non existant, gelation tendencies excluded.

VW is talking out both sides of their advisory mouths.


The Schaeffers blend product is matching or exceeding the AME product which is mostly PAO because the formulations are high quality.

One other area that may be more important and overlooked in this discussion about oil is the fact that the sooting that takes place in the TDI EGR System is influenced more by fuel cleanliness and less by motor oil. I would be adding a high quality fuel add to the crappy diesel we can procure now. FP, nuetra, a must.

"this is the thread that never ends..........

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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Which is my point,the END PRODUCT is what we care about NOT API certs or semantics when it comes to performance.

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I couldn't agree more.

Lately, it appears that the Spec-Boys in industry must be made out of the same material as the scheister lawyers.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

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Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

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Which is my point,the END PRODUCT is what we care about NOT API certs or semantics when it comes to performance.

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I couldn't agree more.

Lately, it appears that the Spec-Boys in industry must be made out of the same material as the scheister lawyers.

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Well, I'll have to hand it to ya guys, you found another way to say what I've been trying to for the last several posts. Simple and direct.

To qualify an oil as good enough for the job or not based soley on it's base oil is not the way to select an oil as there is a lot more at play here than just base oils and heat.

There's ton's of oil analysis that has proven out that oils you'd think wouldn't do well, actually prove out better than thought. And then the opposite is true as well.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Oops look what I just ran across on the TDI forum......

Here are the two most recent oil analysis from our 1996 Passat TDI wagon which is pretty much stock. Based upon the report back from OA, it looks like this PC Duron (GROUP III blend) 5W 40 has a long ways to go.
-----------------------------------------


now, this comment followed from a very, IMO, respected amsoil rep about this analysis....

The one thing that stands out is that chrome wear is fairly high in both these samples. You are running the equivalent of 6-7 ppm/10k miles, whereas I'd typically see 2-4 ppm/10k miles. I have no idea why this would be occurring, since the soot levels are quite low in both tests? The only thing I could suggest is that the prior maintenance practices on this engine weren't that good and you have some carbon buildup in the ring grooves. This could be the result of using a non-diesel rated oil or going too long between changes. It could also be the result of using poor quality diesel fuel for an extended time. At this point, there is no effect on cylinder (iron) wear, but it's something to keep an eye on.

Cleveland Tech Center uses a different ASTM test method for TBN than did OAI, so the results aren't directly comparable. Using the CTC test protocol (ASTM D-4739), I'd feel comfortable going down to a TBN of 4.0 as the allowable limit. You can see the reason for the TBN difference in these two formulations. Both use about the same amount of calcium, but Delvac 1 adds approx 500 ppm of magnesium as an alkaline, detergent/dispersant additive ....

Based on this data, I don't see a problem running 10k changes with either of these oils in this particular motor

[ May 13, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[segfault]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:
I don't have enough long term UOA to share on this forum to compare the 2 oils in the TDI.

Please TDI guys use our service !!!

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I plan to. My dad has a Beetle TDI, and I'm sure he will want to look into doing extended drains, as he averages 35-50,000 miles per year! I will probably give the Fuel Power a whirl in that car as well, as he would be willing to try anything that might increase his mileage. Still, at an observed 47 highway MPG, it's not too shabby!

Those who are active on Fred's forums seem to use either Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 or an Amsoil equivalent. Since these are both on the high end of oils in terms of price, I'd want to get the most mileage possible out of them.

 

[FowVay]

I met a person this weekend that had a A3 TDI and he had 124,000 miles on it. Guess what oil he used..... Castrol GTX 20W-50. Now I was no math major in college but 124,000 miles seems to be a longer distance than 60,000 which I was previously guaranteed to be the point of engine failure if full synthetic was not used.

You must admit that this thread has been quite entertaining. You should have seen the oil wars from the TDIclub from a few years back. It was great!!! I wonder if the Powerstroke and Duramax crowd behave this way?

 

[TexasTDI]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neil:
I just bought an 03 VW Golf TDI ( Turbo charged Direct Injected diesel powered car) last week. I'm still breaking it in so did not push it past 100 mph yesterday. But it still had quite a bit of peddle left.

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Only 100mph, eh? LOL.

quote:

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Back to my question:

VW calls for a 5w-40 or 5w-30 oil that meets the following specification:
API CF-4 or CH-4 wonder why they did just say CH-4?
ACEA B3 or B4.
VW 505.00

Right now I'm considering these oils.
Delvac 1 5w-40
Valvoline Blue Extreme 5w-40
John Deere 0w-40
Castrol Elixon 5w-30
Chevron Delo 400 5w-40
Redline 5w-40
Royal Purple 15w-40
Schaeffers 15w-40
Shell Rotella 5w-40

Any other oils I should look at?
What should I look for in oil for a turbo charged diesel engine?

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I use and recommend full synthetic Group 4 Amsoil 15w-40. Amsoil recommends it's use for outside temps of 5F or higher. It never gets below 20F around here, so I'm safe.

http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html

Chris
2000 VW Golf 1.9 TDI (turbo diesel) - 81k miles
1991 VW Jetta 2 Door 1.6 Diesel - 236k miles

 

[blano]

I have been using petro can 5/40 in my cummins diesel for a few years now with excellant results. The UOA's I have done have been great at 10k intervals regardless of season or use. PC 5/40 equalled or betered delvac 1 in most tests according to a sae p[aper I have read and its only abvout $14 per gallon.