Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
By the time he loses his butt on depreciation and then buys a truck in this car market, he might as well keep driving this one and if he has to pay to fix it again, he'll still be ahead.
New Truck - Go with Diesel or....Gas model? Ford 3.5 Turbo took a dump.
- Thread starter JGmazda
- Start date
I think all current Diesel trucks are turbocharged. Turbo isn't a bad thing just run high quality synthetic. Ford still offers v-8s in the 150/250s non-turbo. From my current understanding the newer Powerstroke Ford diesels have a terrible fuel pump design. It's not if but when it fails the pump breaks apart sende bits and pieces down tve fuel lines destroying the low and high pressure fuel injectors resulting in a 10k repair.
Update: Warranty and decisions.....decisions...decisions....
I went with him this past weekend to talk with the Ford guys and see what they were going to do.
Buddy's truck is currently being evaluated by service department. (They told us they needed to evaluate and examine the truck before deciding what is covered and what isn't.)
While there, a salesman approached us and we told him the reasons we were at the dealership. He showed us a new 2023 Ford 150 Lariat (5.0 V8) and a 2500 series Super Duty with the 6.7L Diesel. My buddy drove both and liked them both. We had a discussion about the Diesel and did some research (Yes, fuel pumps are/were an issue and this 3rd generation seems to have most of the bugs worked-out.) NO MPG ratings on the Diesel. Diesel was approximately $18k more.
Prices and interest rates were given and "Lets make a deal" was presented. My buddy told them he would crunch numbers and rates etc... They were actually pretty nice and not too pushy. Lot's of long-beds on the lot also. The dealership was very empty and maybe three-four people there at most. (Weird on a weekend, but maybe 111degs was too hot for most people.)
As we were leaving, one of the sales managers came out and said he spoke with a service advisor about the warranty and so forth. He said..."What type of lift do you have??... Is it a 4"-lift or leveling kit???" My buddy told him he purchased the truck as-is and didn't install it. The dealer commented: "You know...Lifts can change the drive line angle and.... well... we will have to see what is covered..." My buddy and I looked at each other and thought... HUH? What does this have to do with the cooling system, chains, phasers, turbos etc...???
The manager let us go and we left. That was four days ago and we still have not heard what they are covering under warranty. So, at this point, we have to see what they will cover. I, for one, don't understand what a driveshaft angle has to do with the problems at hand. ???
So, Trade-in value at this point... "even" and "some equity" according to the manager. Deals on new?? Well... TBD.
Warranty?? Um sure.... waiting on their final word and clarification on what a "lift" has to do with the warranty in question.
Correct. You are right. Apparently the BOSCH unit chosen was made from cheaper aluminum and once it grenades, it destroys quite a bit. We have been told the 3rd generation of this diesel has mitigated this. I don't know how or why though...
So what you are really saying is that a Ford with only 57k miles shouldn't be causing problems. (Even though it appears the vast majority of mechanics would choose the 5.0 V8 over the turbo V6) Plus... the failures incurred are well known and problem areas in this application.
How do you know the truck wasn't taken care of? It's regularly oil changed and examined in a reputable shop. Is the oil changed every 3k? No. Is is neglected? I don't believe it is.
Truck was purchased used and not new. Owner was unsure of what warranty was transferable. He thought there was a warranty and admitted he didn't log that into his database for long term storage.
I think it's presumptuous to "paint a picture" of someones knowledge or practices without knowing the individual. And.... just so you know.... I've had this conversation with him about taking a better preventative "severe service" maintenance program in the future.
Has this been a valued learning experience for him? Yes. Can people learn from this thread? Yes.
We are a fickle bunch here on BITOG. Most of us are super concerned with our vehicles and anal about everything mechanical. I will venture to say most people are not like the people here on BITOG.
Agreed. I have had this "talk" with him and he's learned his lesson. There's only so many platforms to choose from and he's even more aware that certain powertrains are going to require more frequent maintenance. Good to hear folks with the 3.5 like them.
dnewton3
Staff member
Don't for one second let the dealer try to blame the engine issues on a suspension lift kit; that's complete bovine manure. The dealer is fishing for weakness in your buddy because they wanna sell him a new truck. And then they'll take his trade in and fix the current it (under warranty no less) and then sell that for a profit as well.
The only way they could reasonably deny warranty is if they can show negligence in maintenance to the engine. That's a potential problem, if the records aren't up to date, receipts aren't in possession, etc.
Thank you. These align with my thoughts also! (Unless the sales manager was completely uniformed of the true nature of the problem.) We purposely didn't get into a discussion about this statement as we both felt it was an unfounded attempt to devalue or "smoke & mirrors" ploy to have my buddy purchase a new vehicle.
Some things never change. I advised my buddy to focus primarily on the warranty "coverage". I've always suspected that any warranty is going to fall under the subjective category. I'm trying to keep myself out of the mix as to avoid being 'that guy". I told my buddy that he must get an answer first and go from there.
We are in a waiting game right now. I'll keep updating once I hear more.
It’s not a chain driven water pump in any RWD format. Just the transverse engine fwd applications.Timing chains for the 3.5/3.7 duratrac are on big back order. I think the ecoboosts use the same one? Not 100% sure. FWIW.
That does seem very high for labor cost. JMO. Basically doing a 3.5 chain driven water pump. I do them for a little more than 1/3 of that.
I bought a used F150. I read the owners manual and warranty booklet when I brought it home. It's not rocket science.Its a good thing you can assist your friend. He needs it.
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Regarding the Ford Ecoboost 3.5 twin turbo engines, part of the problem may be that the manufacturer is specing them in owner's manual for the Synthetic Blend oil with 10k OCI. Synthetic Blend is usually 80% group II conventional oil and 20% group III Full Synthetic.
In an engine with extreme heat from twin turbo's, and high 5000ish extended RPM's with engine temps reaching 230F-240F when towing 11,000 pound trailers up inclines, not sure the Synthetic Blend is up to the task of protecting the timing chain and camshafts for the full 10k recommended OCI.
I'm not saying this caused your friends issue, but if only the manufacturer had speced Full Synthetic with 5k OCI, there is a chance some of these early engine failures with timing chain wear issues wouldn't be happening. All manufacturers seem to be pushing the maintenance windows to the edge nowadays.
For my own vehicles and any new vehicles I buy in the future, I no longer trust manufacturer recommendations in owner's manuals for oil viscosity, oil type, or oil change intervals. Their recommendations are not based on what is best for engine longevity, but are instead based on avoiding CAFE fines or low cost of ownership that their marketing teams can use to market the vehicles to new car buyers.
If you wisely avoid the turbo Ecoboosts and buy an F-150 with the naturally aspirated old school Coyote V-8's, you also get hosed as there is a TSB on them for a widespread high oil consumption issue. So no matter what you do you're screwed in some cases.
The only defense you have is not to buy a brand new one, but to buy a used one where the reliability of a particular year's model of the engine/transmission/etc are well established. But then, there is a 3rd cavaeot. My local mechanic told me he only leases (not buys) new heavy duty pickup trucks because when towing heavy trailers, these new pickup trucks engine and transmissions are toast after 3 to 4 years anyway so better to get a leased one and then return it when the lease ends to avoid the costly repairs. So the 4th choice is to buy a used reliable Toyota Tundra with the V-8 from a good reliable year after doing your research (ex: Consumer Reports Magazine, Car complaints website, etc).
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I would agree with you on pushing the "OCI" envelope. I believe that turbo-anything takes much more diligence and maintenance. These types of engines are pushing-out lots of heat and energy. Oil not only lubricates, but cools. Sub-par maintenance and oil choices are not a good recipe for longevity!
For my tastes, I lean towards a non-boosted V8 and these seem to be going away really fast these days.
You are correct, but it's not just a "chance", A quality synthetic and religious 5000 mile oil change intervals are darn near a 100% cure for the the chain wear, phaser failure, turbocharger, and timing chain guide problems. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that 10W-30 syn is even better, due to lower risk of shear, and generally higher HTHS.
It is a simple solution. Yet people still believe the manufacturer would never mislead them.
Thanks Cujet, your insight is very much appreciated.
One interesting thing to note is that the specific brand of "synthetic blend" recommended by this manufacturer sells for $10 a quart on Amazon. In my opinion, the manufacturer should do the right thing and recommend the full synthetic and make sure the retail price is the same $10.
Yes, it would mean less profit for the manufacturer on the oil sales, but it would give them more repeat new vehicle customers as it would contribute to the reliability of their engines.
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BTW there are now at least two diesels in the SuperDuties the high output version has some mods for increased durability - i also think there is a smaller Godzilla gas motor, 6.7 as well IIRC.
Agree on lift kit, if its transfer case or trans files he's out of luck most likely, but has nothing to do with cam phasers.
Agree on lift kit, if its transfer case or trans files he's out of luck most likely, but has nothing to do with cam phasers.
I’m guessing you’re referring to Motorcraft Full Synthetic made by ConocoPhillips and South Korean S-Oil. Don’t even bother. Consumers can just get 5 quarts of Mobil 1 Full Synthetic from Walmart for 25 bucks.
They (the mechanics) would choose the V8 because most mechanics working on your truck would be old school minded “turbos are bad” I’m set in my ways type of people. The only thing they know less about is oil
There are who knows how many turbo platform vehicles out there at 100k+ miles. It’s not some new technology that we are still seeing play out. It’s not even the turbo that is the issue on the vehicle in question.
Exactly.
I will be specific. M1, 5W-30 for colder locations, 10W-30 for warmer locations. The EP version is always a good choice. Change at 5000 miles, 10,000 miles, 15,000 miles, 20,000 miles, etc. Easy, simple, effective.
Reason: The 3.5 EB engine contaminates the oil sufficiently, by about the 4000-4500 mile mark. Circulating those contaminates for an additional 6000 miles is going to result in chain wear and phaser problems.
Update - Last one...
Well, this is the final update. Yesterday, my buddy was offered a smokin' deal in the 2500 series 6.7L Diesel Super Duty. The numbers clicked and he's now an owner.
The dealership offered him way more money for his truck and came down on the 2500. Knowing and learning from this whole saga has taught him to be much more observational and not to go strictly with a "schedule". As for what happened with the warranty...
The service writer informed him that his turbocharger(s) were on their way out. (Covered). He also didn't mention anything about the other issues at-hand and the didn't have half of the independent shops issues problems listed. My buddy didn't want to open a can-of-worms because of the deal they were giving him.
Soooo... he decided to start fresh and move forward. Perhaps they know or knew all along. Tough to say. I'm just glad it's over. We all can speculate here on this and that... Bottom line is there are multiple factors involved here and at this point, the only take-away is to be on top of maintenance etc.
Thanks to all that contributed with the pros & cons etc. Ultimately, it's his 'dime" and choice. I (My opinion) still am going to shy away from any newer "turbo" technology for the sole reason of avoiding complexity. (when possible.) I realize many of you love your forced-fed engines and don't understand why there are so many that don't. In the end, it's about what works for "you".
Thanks guys.
Well, this is the final update. Yesterday, my buddy was offered a smokin' deal in the 2500 series 6.7L Diesel Super Duty. The numbers clicked and he's now an owner.
The dealership offered him way more money for his truck and came down on the 2500. Knowing and learning from this whole saga has taught him to be much more observational and not to go strictly with a "schedule". As for what happened with the warranty...
The service writer informed him that his turbocharger(s) were on their way out. (Covered). He also didn't mention anything about the other issues at-hand and the didn't have half of the independent shops issues problems listed. My buddy didn't want to open a can-of-worms because of the deal they were giving him.
Soooo... he decided to start fresh and move forward. Perhaps they know or knew all along. Tough to say. I'm just glad it's over. We all can speculate here on this and that... Bottom line is there are multiple factors involved here and at this point, the only take-away is to be on top of maintenance etc.
Thanks to all that contributed with the pros & cons etc. Ultimately, it's his 'dime" and choice. I (My opinion) still am going to shy away from any newer "turbo" technology for the sole reason of avoiding complexity. (when possible.) I realize many of you love your forced-fed engines and don't understand why there are so many that don't. In the end, it's about what works for "you".
Thanks guys.
