New Tires on Front or back?

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Every time you rotate tires on a front wheel drive car you are doing the exact opposite... you are putting the better tires (with less wear) on the front.


So I guess the question is what is the condition of the two not-new tires. If they are really worn I would agree and put them up front as to keep the dynamics safe. If they are relatively new and would have comparable traction I would put them in back so that over the next 10,000 miles all tires would become even and you could use a normal rotation pattern.


if you rotate your tires often enough they wont wear wonky and have 3/4 worn out ones and new looking ones.

If I had 2 half worn tires and 2 new tires.. I wouldnt mind the new tires in the front for spring/summer/fall provided the half worn tires werent prone to hydroplaning. (and equalize wear)

IN the winter you dont want [censored] tires in the rear.
That causes the whole left turn at intersection turns into a 360degree spin into car/pole

you have traction to go.. but with no grip in the rear you do donuts when trying to turn.

then again I still might like the worn ones out front.. and just replace them before winter.

 

[zorobabel]

I am talking about FWD cars here, these cars don't usually oversteer but understeer. They can oversteer if you try to flip the car, but tires won't be of much help then. @OP flipping the car is easy on a Camry, at least the 97-02 ones.

@Rand, which FWD car have you oversteered in an intersection on snow? In winter I am more concerned with slowing down before the turn (where the grippier tires help more if mounted on the front) than with oversteering (which won't happen as you will understeer and hit the pole in a frontal crash).

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: zorobabel
I am talking about FWD cars here, these cars don't usually oversteer but understeer. They can oversteer if you try to flip the car, but tires won't be of much help then. @OP flipping the car is easy on a Camry, at least the 97-02 ones.

@Rand, which FWD car have you oversteered in an intersection on snow? In winter I am more concerned with slowing down before the turn (where the grippier tires help more if mounted on the front) than with oversteering (which won't happen as you will understeer and hit the pole in a frontal crash).


Um...did you watch the video's posted up top? Just asking.

 

[bepperb]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: bepperb
Every time you rotate tires on a front wheel drive car you are doing the exact opposite... you are putting the better tires (with less wear) on the front.


So I guess the question is what is the condition of the two not-new tires. If they are really worn I would agree and put them up front as to keep the dynamics safe. If they are relatively new and would have comparable traction I would put them in back so that over the next 10,000 miles all tires would become even and you could use a normal rotation pattern.


if you rotate your tires often enough they wont wear wonky and have 3/4 worn out ones and new looking ones.

If I had 2 half worn tires and 2 new tires.. I wouldnt mind the new tires in the front for spring/summer/fall provided the half worn tires werent prone to hydroplaning. (and equalize wear)

IN the winter you dont want [censored] tires in the rear.
That causes the whole left turn at intersection turns into a 360degree spin into car/pole

you have traction to go.. but with no grip in the rear you do donuts when trying to turn.

then again I still might like the worn ones out front.. and just replace them before winter.


Well I agree with all of this, assuming the old tires have less grip than the new.

To be honest, I've only ever owned front wheel drive cars and to get oversteer the rears have to have a LOT less tread than the fronts. I'd go so far as saying if the fronts are at 10/32 and the rears are at 6/32 that probably still won't cause oversteer on a Camry. And since there is so much assuming going on here I'd assume that if you replaced two and not four tires the two "good" ones must be pretty good and have more than 6/32 of tread.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: zorobabel
I am talking about FWD cars here, these cars don't usually oversteer but understeer. They can oversteer if you try to flip the car, but tires won't be of much help then. @OP flipping the car is easy on a Camry, at least the 97-02 ones.

@Rand, which FWD car have you oversteered in an intersection on snow? In winter I am more concerned with slowing down before the turn (where the grippier tires help more if mounted on the front) than with oversteering (which won't happen as you will understeer and hit the pole in a frontal crash).


Since you asked I had a 2007 focus without ABS
I had 1/2 worn dunlop M3's on it and made a left turn slightly too fast for conditions (about 15mph) at a main intersection in akron.(wilbeth and main st)

The front end was fine slight sliding.. the back went out and i ended up with my rear end up on the (really low) curb.
The car was perpendicular to traffic

It also had rear drums. They would get rusty and grabby sometimes.

IF you watched the tirerack videos you would see my point.

Its also pretty much what happens in winter if you put 2 good snow tires on front and all seasons on the rear.

I retired the snow tires after that season. They were down to 5/32 which was the problem.

 

[Audios]

Better tires on the front always. More important to be able to brake and steer than be able to accelerate IMO.

 

[MNgopher]

As usual, there are some people with a terrible grasp of physics and ignorance of professional demonstrations.

Having experienced driving a car where a so called expert put the new tires in front and worn tires in the back in the snow, after doing an unplanned 360 with a light touch of the brakes in snow/ice conditions, I'll take the better tires in the rear, period. Yes, even on a FWD car. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Front heavy FWD vehicles with poor tires in the rear are a recipe for this, though ABS braking masks some of the issue.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: Audios
Better tires on the front always. More important to be able to brake and steer than be able to accelerate IMO.


yes and what happens when the fronts grip really good and the back tires slip...

you do a 180 or 360.

all driving isnt straight line with dry road.

I hope people watch the videos before replying here.. If I cared anymore I'd pull my hair out..

Esp on a fwd car where all the weight is in front.

Low weight+ not so great back tires + weight transfer off back tires while breaking = high chance to spinout if braking on any sort of turn

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: zorobabel
@Rand, which FWD car have you oversteered in an intersection on snow?

I'll list mine:

1985 Audi 80
1988 Ford Fiesta
1991 Ford Escort
1991 Nissan Stanza
2000 Honda Accord
2001 VW Jetta

Quote:
In winter I am more concerned with slowing down before the turn (where the grippier tires help more if mounted on the front) than with oversteering (which won't happen as you will understeer and hit the pole in a frontal crash).

Are you sure?

Watch what happens to the silver car when you put better tires up front during winter (start watching at 1'25"):

 

[tommygunn]

When I hit a wet spot and my car is close to hydroplaning I want those new thick rubber tires on the front so I can control my car. I don't drive a car like I did 25 years ago, so over steering and under steering doesn't effect me. The rear tires on a front wheel drive car has very little wear because they are not pushing and when breaking the cars weight shifts forward where better disc breaks stop the car. Stick the new ones on the front so all 4 will wear out about the same time and then you can buy 4 new tires.

 

[Quattro Pete]

And here is a Civic spinning out due to having worse tires in the back:

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
When I hit a wet spot and my car is close to hydroplaning I want those new thick rubber tires on the front so I can control my car.

Is your browser somehow blocking the videos previously posted???

It's much easier to control hydroplaning in the front because you'll get plenty of advance warning through the steering wheel. It's more difficult to control hydroplaning in the back because you can't control the back.

Quote:

I don't drive a car like I did 25 years ago, so over steering and under steering doesn't effect me.

It does not affect you? Do you only drive in straight lines?

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
When I hit a wet spot and my car is close to hydroplaning I want those new thick rubber tires on the front so I can control my car. I don't drive a car like I did 25 years ago, so over steering and under steering doesn't effect me. The rear tires on a front wheel drive car has very little wear because they are not pushing and when breaking the cars weight shifts forward where better disc breaks stop the car. Stick the new ones on the front so all 4 will wear out about the same time and then you can buy 4 new tires.

but what happens when you break NOT in a straight line.. you pickup the weight off the back of the car making it spin out.

once your back is loose its over. if the front gets lose you have options.

but apparantly people dont watch the video or know physics.

I AGREE IN A STRAIGHT LINE. you will brake better with new tires on the front. I dont know about you but I have to turn sometimes.. and the interstate in ohio isnt a straight line.

 

[tommygunn]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
When I hit a wet spot and my car is close to hydroplaning I want those new thick rubber tires on the front so I can control my car.

Is your browser somehow blocking the videos previously posted???

It's much easier to control hydroplaning in the front because you'll get plenty of advance warning through the steering wheel. It's more difficult to control hydroplaning in the back because you can't control the back.

Quote:

I don't drive a car like I did 25 years ago, so over steering and under steering doesn't effect me.

It does not affect you? Do you only drive in straight lines?


I don't have to watch the videos I have years of experience driving rear and front wheel drive cars. I also have 500000 miles locally driving a 18 wheeler in a former life accident free and I drive like a old man because I need my driving record clean in case I have to go back to my previous life.

Old tires are slicker and slick tires do not let water flow thru as well as new tires. Rear tires on a front wheel drive car are there to basically keep the back bumper off the road!

 

[tommygunn]

I just read the same thing on Tirerack and it is going to be a while before I can talk myself into believing this. My theory is the good rubber on the front tires pushes the water away while the back tires roll right thru a fraction of the amount of water.

 

[zyxelenator]

Weird, since while I was working at car shop, both managers (who are long time mechanics) always told me to put better tires on the front on fwd cars. I always had better tires on front. For example I had 03 V6 Altima with auto without ABS, which sucked compared to current Camry in snow.
Altima had more Under steering troubles, if there is sharp turn(tested on parking lot and actually hitting a curb on icy and showy hill first winter), front wheels would turn where you need to but will just slide sideways. Sometimes turning it more to the side helps since rims start plowing snow. I fishtailed ones on that car, with tires that had about 4/32 on back and about 6/32 front, and I was able to manage control back quick by playing with steering wheel. If my fronts would slide on that spot I would go straight into concrete wall.

Anyway if better tires should be always on the back, why should I rotate my tires on FWD? Front will wore out faster, then I just buy 2 new tires, throw them on the back and old ones to the front.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
Anyway if better tires should be always on the back, why should I rotate my tires on FWD? Front will wore out faster, then I just buy 2 new tires, throw them on the back and old ones to the front.

Nothing wrong with that strategy.

 

[ahoier]

Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
Anyway if better tires should be always on the back, why should I rotate my tires on FWD? Front will wore out faster, then I just buy 2 new tires, throw them on the back and old ones to the front.
DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNAR!


lol....I've been thinking about this all along.

I myself am due for new tires....I can understand the rationale of having the 2 new tires on the rear axle.....but yes....then WHY rotate the tires.....? Because you will be putting the "better" tires to the front eventually.....because on the FWD vehicle, the front tires always wear out sooner than the rears

On a side note, I like the idea of new on the rear.....particularly for cars with picky alignments You won't tear the [censored] out of your tires on the rear with a bad alignment......at least, not as bad if they were on the front...

 

[HTSS_TR]

For FWD vehicles, a little more tread up front is not significantly alter the under-steer. Assume that front tire wear twice as fast as rear tire on FWD vehicles, when the front tire wears down from 10/32" to 8/32", the rear would be down to 9/32". If you rotate now then the front will be 9/32" and rear is 8/32". At about the same mileage when first rotate the tire, the front wears down from 9/32" to 7/32" the rear would be 7/32" also.

Keep doing rotation when the front wears down 2/32" then you don't have significant tread depth difference front and rear.

 

[zorobabel]

Originally Posted By: Rand
Originally Posted By: zorobabel
I am talking about FWD cars here, these cars don't usually oversteer but understeer. They can oversteer if you try to flip the car, but tires won't be of much help then. @OP flipping the car is easy on a Camry, at least the 97-02 ones.

@Rand, which FWD car have you oversteered in an intersection on snow? In winter I am more concerned with slowing down before the turn (where the grippier tires help more if mounted on the front) than with oversteering (which won't happen as you will understeer and hit the pole in a frontal crash).


Since you asked I had a 2007 focus without ABS
I had 1/2 worn dunlop M3's on it and made a left turn slightly too fast for conditions (about 15mph) at a main intersection in akron.(wilbeth and main st)

The front end was fine slight sliding.. the back went out and i ended up with my rear end up on the (really low) curb.
The car was perpendicular to traffic

It also had rear drums. They would get rusty and grabby sometimes.

IF you watched the tirerack videos you would see my point.

Its also pretty much what happens in winter if you put 2 good snow tires on front and all seasons on the rear.

I retired the snow tires after that season. They were down to 5/32 which was the problem.


Thanks for sharing the story Rand. I guess it depends on driving style, for me the fronts have always lost grip first.
I wasn't seeing the videos before, but all 4 seem made by people that sell tires. Assuming the first 2 (tirerack) videos are impartial it seems that the new tires in the rear are better in those hydroplaning conditions; point taken. I would have loved to see how they handled at different speeds aka how much faster could you drive with half worn fronts. But it's not really a test, they were just trying to make a point. Driving around in a circle hydroplaning isn't the whole story, let's see some braking or sharper turns on that wet track.

@Quattro Pete, thanks for digging up those videos.
But I have to say the first one isn't even comparing the same cars, but I do see your point with the Yaris spinning; what would it have done with the tires reversed? We'll never know. The point of the video is that 4 snow tires are best in winter. I agree.
The 2nd video is again comparing a Civic with 4 snow tires to a Civic with 2 front snow tires - not relevant. I get the point with the Civic spinning, but even then - the front had already lost grip. The grey Civic seemed to be driven harder than the white one to me any way, I just can't trust them. Had the 2 winter tires been on the back, would the Civic have turned better? I bet not! It wasn't the point of the video.

To sum up, rotate tires and avoid potholes if posible so you replace all 4 tires at once (economically). Slowdown in hydroplaning conditions, snow and ice and say your prayers on black ice. You'll be better off regardless of your tires.