Vibration (like buffeting) 68-73MPH new tires, 3 different shops checked

[smokey_2020]

I forget which channel, but I recently watched a video where they were troubleshooting a similar problem, and it turned out to be dirt/rust on the brake rotor and hub. Previous repairs never properly cleaned the tire/rotor/hub mounting surface, so they got very strange vibrations. Also, your comments on the NVH app (and your software dev experience) , and having previously worked on iPhone development back in the iPhone 3 days got me wondering- do you have a different iPhone you can use for the NVH app ? I am thinking perhaps use another phone, transfer the software, and validate the previous readings. Its possible that the accelerometer could be better/worse than your current iPhone. I used to work in the communications industry with cell providers and we did have problems with the same model phone having different tolerances / efficiencies on the cell bands, validated through huge amounts of data collected to troubleshoot customer rx/tx issues. I recall that at that time, Huawei and HTC cell phones had far more variance than other brands. Or maybe via social media and the NVH app you can find somebody close to you that has the app on their phone and you can do a test.

Yes, folks did mention that to me the need to check mating surfaces between the wheels and the hubs, those I checked and dealer checked. What was not checked is the rotor/hub mating surfaces. Is this what you (@rubberchicken ) mean?
As for the changing app, I have used it on the my son's iPhone 11 and my wife's iPhone 13, both very very similar. I am on modified Android and even my Pixel device is not as closely calibrated as iPhones that is why I bought iPhone license. Even major calibration software makers like Anthem or Sonos, consider calibration of sensors on iPhones tight enough. Anrdoid sadly - no.

I reached out to the NVH app maker and rightfully they told me no dice on moving a license from iPhone to Android and I do not want to spend another $107 on the app that I do know not even know if it works.

 

[rubberchicken]

Yes, folks did mention that to me the need to check mating surfaces between the wheels and the hubs, those I checked and dealer checked. What was not checked is the rotor/hub mating surfaces. Is this what you (@rubberchicken ) mean?
As for the changing app, I have used it on the my son's iPhone 11 and my wife's iPhone 13, both very very similar. I am on modified Android and even my Pixel device is not as closely calibrated as iPhones that is why I bought iPhone license. Even major calibration software makers like Anthem or Sonos, consider calibration of sensors on iPhones tight enough. Anrdoid sadly - no.

I reached out to the NVH app maker and rightfully they told me no dice on moving a license from iPhone to Android and I do not want to spend another $107 on the app that I do know not even know if it works.

I got the impression that the NVH software was $399 based on the first video I watched, but realized later that its really $100. I might get that for my own personal use.

 

[JHZR2]

Yes, I think Duramax 3.0 is incredibly smooth on this vehicle, in fact this is one of the best engines I ever owned over the years, it puts 5.3 to shame.
I realize that chasing this problem is incredibly hard and now getting expensive, new set of tires, multiple dealer visits, etc. but I visited local Chevy dealer and my $46K Tahoe LS with diesel that I bought 3 years ago is now min of $80K+, which I simply cannot afford.

These are the only plots I have, NVH phone app and GM Pico test. They cannot be more different. Regardless, eardrum pressure is there with new tires, same 63-73MPH band. With new Defender tires, eardrum pressure is less obvious but it is still there and enough pressure to keep me popping my ears at this speed.

View attachment 333707

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But again, theee don’t show anything of substance. Theyre post processed correlations, based upon inputs that I’m not even sure what they are.

Thus my request.

Downloaded the free vibration analysis app.

Set cruise to 60 on smooth road. Verify speed with gps.

Set phone flat on hard flat surface, allow to sample a while until the trends are observed. Screen shot. Post it up.

That gives us good quality raw data. Knowing your tire in what size, and the vendor’s rotations/mile means that when you’re traveling at one mile per minute, you know how many rotations per second you’re doing. Then you know your differential ratio, and transmission ratio. Thus you can actually back out the frequencies and higher order harmonics.

Are you sure that in a vehicle with aerodynamics of a brick, that wind noise and buffering isn’t the issue?

 

[smokey_2020]

But again, theee don’t show anything of substance. Theyre post processed correlations, based upon inputs that I’m not even sure what they are.

Thus my request.

Downloaded the free vibration analysis app.

View attachment 333802

Set cruise to 60 on smooth road. Verify speed with gps.

Set phone flat on hard flat surface, allow to sample a while until the trends are observed. Screen shot. Post it up.

That gives us good quality raw data. Knowing your tire in what size, and the vendor’s rotations/mile means that when you’re traveling at one mile per minute, you know how many rotations per second you’re doing. Then you know your differential ratio, and transmission ratio. Thus you can actually back out the frequencies and higher order harmonics.

Are you sure that in a vehicle with aerodynamics of a brick, that wind noise and buffering isn’t the issue?

Thank you, @JHZR2 ! Got it, now I understand, I found this app in the appstore and will measure with it. As for buffeting, this vehicle has been uber smooth across the entire 0-90MPH for the past 3 years. So something new has emerged lately.

 

[smokey_2020]

@JHZR2 thank you for yout guifance. I have tried the Vibration Analysis app today. I have misunderstood that this app also records data as time-series, I kept the speed at 60MPH, for first 2 mins, then went up to problematic 68MPH while kept recording. Looks like this app does not plot over time axis but rather across frequencies.
Here are the screenshots, not sure if these are helpful, I will re-do the recording just keeping straight 60 MPH without speeding up to 68.

 

[Vexorg]

What exactly happened to cause the damage in the first place? You said it was damaged at a car wash, but no other details.

 

[smokey_2020]

Carwash wheel guides were welded pipes, one angled part on the entrance had a sharp welding seam that touched the side of the tire and sliced the side wall. Tire sidewall slice caused me to buy new 4 tires (tires were at 44K miles, I could have gone another 15-20K on those but I decided to replace). With new tires this harmonics stuff started, balance, re-balance, no dice. New Defender tire set made harmonics far less prominent but still there). New set of tires was also RoadForce balanced on install.

 

[Vexorg]

Carwash wheel guides were welded pipes, one angled part on the entrance had a sharp welding seam that touched the side of the tire and sliced the side wall. Tire sidewall slice caused me to buy new 4 tires (tires were at 44K miles, I could have gone another 15-20K on those but I decided to replace). With new tires this harmonics stuff started, balance, re-balance, no dice. New Defender tire set made harmonics far less prominent but still there). New set of tires was also RoadForce balanced on install.

I see. Sounds like the wheel is damaged. Like a nick or just a very small bend in the inner lip. Have you tried moving the wheels to different postitons to see if the vibration moves?

 

[smokey_2020]

I see. Sounds like the wheel is damaged. Like a nick or just a very small bend in the inner lip. Have you tried moving the wheels to different postitons to see if the vibration moves?

I did buy a brand new wheel as well just in case and got that wheel without the tire checked by two different shops, they spun it and saw no lateral or any kind of vibration. Plus Hunter Platinum does check wheels as well during RF.
I suspect it is a bearing failure but not enough to feel it with my hands. However, Pico test did not confirm the bearing, supposedly Pico can determine bearings (of course if the operator knows how to use it).

 

[mcrn]

How much to replace the bearing?

 

[smokey_2020]

How much to replace the bearing?

if I try to do it myself, it is probably $200-$250 for OEM parts and tools. Problem is there are two bearings per each wheel on the 4x4 diff end of the axle, and hub side then which out of 4 wheels has the bearing problem.

 

[smokey_2020]

@JHZR2
Here are the measurements at 60MPH relatively flat highway. Appreciate your insights.

 

[SugarMouth]

Carwash wheel guides were welded pipes, one angled part on the entrance had a sharp welding seam that touched the side of the tire and sliced the side wall. Tire sidewall slice caused me to buy new 4 tires (tires were at 44K miles, I could have gone another 15-20K on those but I decided to replace). With new tires this harmonics stuff started, balance, re-balance, no dice. New Defender tire set made harmonics far less prominent but still there). New set of tires was also RoadForce balanced on install.

Because this started right after the wheel/tire replacement I would look at the hub surfaces as I mentioned prior. You could check for wheel run out on the truck and if so that could be the issue. This will show a surface to surface issue while installed.

Raise truck and secure a plastic pry tool on a fixed prop. Bring to the edge of the wheel and check for lateral and radial run out by spinning the wheel.

 

[MBBW]

3rd Order vibrations are never caused by wheel balance, I learned a lot about NVH. Every rim has been checked by the installer on the Hunter Elite machine just yesterday before they mounted a new set of tires on the rims.

I had a VERY LONG back and forth with Tire Rack some years ago when I purchased a brand new set of wheels and high-performance winters from them (Michelin Alpin PA4's). Any wheel + tire combo you order from them direct is supposed to come already RFB'ed. Well, it wasn't, and the entire setup was totally out of spec.

Even after going through the rigmarole checklist they require to process refunds/replacements, getting the setup RFB'ed, having the out of spec tires replaced until all 4 were "within spec", guess what? Still had noticeable NVH.

I pushed and pushed, even sweetened the pot for them - said I would buy a whole new set of wheels + tires, even more expensive than the last. They finally agreed, sent over the new order, I mounted them on the car at home and that was that.

NVH gone.

I had a set of tires road forced from a reputable shop and cleaning the hub faces was part of the money spent. Unfortunately, there's no clearcut defect that you can nail down, so throwing parts at it until it's found, or waiting for it to get worse are your options. I hate vibrations and had one like this, but I traced it to the slide pins. For those who say the location of the one with the rubber doesn't matter, it did on my ride. I still have a car whose tires vibrate on certain roads but not others.

Slide pins? They must've been extremely loose.

Carwash wheel guides were welded pipes, one angled part on the entrance had a sharp welding seam that touched the side of the tire and sliced the side wall. Tire sidewall slice caused me to buy new 4 tires (tires were at 44K miles, I could have gone another 15-20K on those but I decided to replace). With new tires this harmonics stuff started, balance, re-balance, no dice. New Defender tire set made harmonics far less prominent but still there). New set of tires was also RoadForce balanced on install.

Can you elaborate? Were you actually in the vehicle when this happened? Do you have pics of the tire? Was the tire (briefly) drivable after the incident? If so, did you drive It on the highway? You know, I'd imagine this sort of thing would require quite a bit of force. In theory, the rails should've acted to protect the rest of your suspension, which is why the tire absorbed the brunt of the force, but since the rails also prevent the tire from turning L/R, is it possible this deformed the steering/suspension components just enough to cause new NVH at resonant frequencies?

Here's the other thing: why is your SUV the only vehicle that had a shredded tire? Or was it? If it was, then we can't be certain it was just a sharp piece of metal that did this? Did the sidewall get sliced and then just smoothly glide through the rest of the car wash? Maybe the offending wheel was cocked in the guide rails and made it through the entire wash that way.

My guess is the damage extended beyond just the tire, and the problem you're looking for is downstream of it. Like others have said, it's probably a CV shaft or a bearing. High speed resonant frequency-induced NVH can occur even when vehicle components appear "normal" to a mechanic. Speaking from experience.

 

[MParr]

I had a VERY LONG back and forth with Tire Rack some years ago when I purchased a brand new set of wheels and high-performance winters from them (Michelin Alpin PA4's). Any wheel + tire combo you order from them direct is supposed to come already RFB'ed. Well, it wasn't, and the entire setup was totally out of spec.

Even after going through the rigmarole checklist they require to process refunds/replacements, getting the setup RFB'ed, having the out of spec tires replaced until all 4 were "within spec", guess what? Still had noticeable NVH.

I pushed and pushed, even sweetened the pot for them - said I would buy a whole new set of wheels + tires, even more expensive than the last. They finally agreed, sent over the new order, I mounted them on the car at home and that was that.

NVH gone.


Slide pins? They must've been extremely loose.


Can you elaborate? Were you actually in the vehicle when this happened? Do you have pics of the tire? Was the tire (briefly) drivable after the incident? If so, did you drive It on the highway? You know, I'd imagine this sort of thing would require quite a bit of force. In theory, the rails should've acted to protect the rest of your suspension, which is why the tire absorbed the brunt of the force, but since the rails also prevent the tire from turning L/R, is it possible this deformed the steering/suspension components just enough to cause new NVH at resonant frequencies?

Here's the other thing: why is your SUV the only vehicle that had a shredded tire? Or was it? If it was, then we can't be certain it was just a sharp piece of metal that did this? Did the sidewall get sliced and then just smoothly glide through the rest of the car wash? Maybe the offending wheel was cocked in the guide rails and made it through the entire wash that way.

My guess is the damage extended beyond just the tire, and the problem you're looking for is downstream of it. Like others have said, it's probably a CV shaft or a bearing. High speed resonant frequency-induced NVH can occur even when vehicle components appear "normal" to a mechanic. Speaking from experience.

My guess is also anything that's turning at speed. Wheel bearings, drive shafts, CV axles, universal joints, carrier bearings.

 

[D1dad]

I had a VERY LONG back and forth with Tire Rack some years ago when I purchased a brand new set of wheels and high-performance winters from them (Michelin Alpin PA4's). Any wheel + tire combo you order from them direct is supposed to come already RFB'ed. Well, it wasn't, and the entire setup was totally out of spec.

Even after going through the rigmarole checklist they require to process refunds/replacements, getting the setup RFB'ed, having the out of spec tires replaced until all 4 were "within spec", guess what? Still had noticeable NVH.

I pushed and pushed, even sweetened the pot for them - said I would buy a whole new set of wheels + tires, even more expensive than the last. They finally agreed, sent over the new order, I mounted them on the car at home and that was that.

NVH gone.


Slide pins? They must've been extremely loose.


Can you elaborate? Were you actually in the vehicle when this happened? Do you have pics of the tire? Was the tire (briefly) drivable after the incident? If so, did you drive It on the highway? You know, I'd imagine this sort of thing would require quite a bit of force. In theory, the rails should've acted to protect the rest of your suspension, which is why the tire absorbed the brunt of the force, but since the rails also prevent the tire from turning L/R, is it possible this deformed the steering/suspension components just enough to cause new NVH at resonant frequencies?

Here's the other thing: why is your SUV the only vehicle that had a shredded tire? Or was it? If it was, then we can't be certain it was just a sharp piece of metal that did this? Did the sidewall get sliced and then just smoothly glide through the rest of the car wash? Maybe the offending wheel was cocked in the guide rails and made it through the entire wash that way.

My guess is the damage extended beyond just the tire, and the problem you're looking for is downstream of it. Like others have said, it's probably a CV shaft or a bearing. High speed resonant frequency-induced NVH can occur even when vehicle components appear "normal" to a mechanic. Speaking from experience.

Weren’t loose at all. The pin with the rubber wasn’t allowing the caliper to fully release and the pad was contacting the rotor just enough to heat things up, thus a vibration. This was at cruising and not applying the brakes. Swapped the pins and all was well and it was only on the right front.

 

[D1dad]

@JHZR2
Here are the measurements at 60MPH relatively flat highway. Appreciate your insights.

View attachment 334376

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Any updates? I’m dealing with this on my summer tires and it’s driving me insane. Road forced, rebalanced and it’s still there. I don’t wanna replace rim after rim to find it since there isn’t a rim that’s out of spec. Plus there’s no such thing as a good tireman where I live. Just hourly shops who take no pride in what they do anymore. Get em on and get em out as fast as possible.

 

[CapriRacer]

Any updates? I’m dealing with this on my summer tires and it’s driving me insane. Road forced, rebalanced and it’s still there. I don’t wanna replace rim after rim to find it since there isn’t a rim that’s out of spec. Plus there’s no such thing as a good tireman where I live. Just hourly shops who take no pride in what they do anymore. Get em on and get em out as fast as possible.

I don't think this is a tire and/or wheel issue. The way this is described is a third order harmonic and 3rd order harmonics are extremely rare when it comes to tires/wheels. I'm not saying it is impossible, but it seems incredibly unlikely.

 

[smokey_2020]

Thanks to good men of this forum, I have tried everything and anything and now realizing that an only way to do is to replace part by part but it is not financially viable for me. I am driving it and just hoping that whatever the defect is it would manifest itself loudly.
Same trim Tahoe LS with diesel is no longer avail from GM and what was $48K 3.5 years ago is now a min of $75K. Markets moved up.

I have a very long 2200 miles trip upcoming and I am dreading the experience and 63-73MPH is the sweetspot band for this trip, so I will be "enjoying" the harmonics.

 

[MParr]

Thanks to good men of this forum, I have tried everything and anything and now realizing that an only way to do is to replace part by part but it is not financially viable for me. I am driving it and just hoping that whatever the defect is it would manifest itself loudly.
Same trim Tahoe LS with diesel is no longer avail from GM and what was $48K 3.5 years ago is now a min of $75K. Markets moved up.

I have a very long 2200 miles trip upcoming and I am dreading the experience and 63-73MPH is the sweetspot band for this trip, so I will be "enjoying" the harmonics.

If it's a wheel bearing, it will eventually show itself.
You certainly don't want a new Tahoe with the 6.2 gas engine.
Your only other alternative is a Ford Expedition. The 3.5 Ecoboost makes plenty of power and will tow 9,000 pounds.